EDL/Dialogue Editing

[breaktheory]

Is the EDL still the preferred method of communicating picture change to the sound team or is there a new technology?

Also, when dialogue editing a feature, are the editors using the imported OMF audio for their DX tracks or are they using the EDL to locate and replace all of the dialogue using production audio? (not just fixes and alternate takes)

[Big Andy]

yes, yes and yes.

I will sometimes (if working from home and time isn't an issue) manually conform audio based on the EDL. However, there are a lot of conform products out there to deal with Picture changes and EDLs.

For initial import of audio I think OMF / AAF imports vary based on what kind of show you're working on and if you have an organized editor. TV mostly works from the OMF / AAF in my experience. Film with a good Editor will go off an EDL. If you sense the Editor was not so organized, ask for an OMF / AAF with very large handles. Alway get the production sound notes and the Scripty's notes too. This'll make your job so much easier.

[breaktheory]

Originally Posted by Big Andy

For initial import of audio I think OMF / AAF imports vary based on what kind of show you're working on and if you have an organized editor.

In the case of a feature length film, I know the audio will be initially imported as an OMF but I didn't realize that the dialogue editor will go back and replace all the OMF dialogue with the original audio files -

With an OMF at 24/48, I'd think the original recording would be identical.

Is the apprentice or assistant editor the one coming in to interpret the EDL and conform everyone's sessions with virtual katy or something like it?

[Big Andy]

It should be the Asst Editor. The issue is that even big budget projects sometimes don't allocate money for an Asst. Editor.

The reason you would want to do a full import based off of an EDL is so you have the entire audio file right there in the timeline. It makes finding room tone much easier and it helps when you need to find alts as well.

An OMF / AAF has defined handles that it can give you. So if something is missing/wrong you need to dig through production audio to find things like: Room tone, Alternates, Different Mics, PFX the director remembered they got in production and fell in love with while watching the daily. This problem is even worse with an editor that didn't import the audio properly, thus changing the metadata so now all the region s/he gave you in the OMF / AAF are miss labeled and you need to dig through the Production Sound Log / Scripty Notes to figure out what is what.

[jimlongo]

Sometimes the production sound would be recorded with a multitrack disc recorder.
Then dailies are made with a mix of all the channels - this is sent to editorial.
So the OMF in that case has inferior audio as compared to the multitrack recorder, hence the need to reconform.

[Lipflap]

Sometimes the OMF will contain all of the recorded tracks; other times the picture editor will work with a guide track, so the OMF will not give you the material you need. What's important is that you know what you'll be receiving BEFORE you get the OMF, so that you can be ready to act accordingly. It's usually not rocket science to add to your session the tracks that you didn't get from the picture department - whether with Titan or other software- , but it's good to know what to expect.

[breaktheory]

Originally Posted by Lipflap

Sometimes the OMF will contain all of the recorded tracks; other times the picture editor will work with a guide track, so the OMF will not give you the material you need. What's important is that you know what you'll be receiving BEFORE you get the OMF, so that you can be ready to act accordingly. It's usually not rocket science to add to your session the tracks that you didn't get from the picture department - whether with Titan or other software- , but it's good to know what to expect.

Thanks for jumping in, John...I just started reading your book, hit the chapter on the EDL and realized I really don't know much about them at all. I'm coming from a background in commercials so our conform notes were always from emailed editor's notes or we'd just adjust by eye.

[breaktheory]

Originally Posted by Big Andy

It should be the Asst Editor. The issue is that even big budget projects sometimes don't allocate money for an Asst. Editor.

The reason you would want to do a full import based off of an EDL is so you have the entire audio file right there in the timeline. It makes finding room tone much easier and it helps when you need to find alts as well.

An OMF / AAF has defined handles that it can give you. So if something is missing/wrong you need to dig through production audio to find things like: Room tone, Alternates, Different Mics, PFX the director remembered they got in production and fell in love with while watching the daily. This problem is even worse with an editor that didn't import the audio properly, thus changing the metadata so now all the region s/he gave you in the OMF / AAF are miss labeled and you need to dig through the Production Sound Log / Scripty Notes to figure out what is what.

I really didn't realize the importance of the EDL until I started reading John's book. I have an assistant editor job coming up in Sept. and I really need to get my head around this, especially with it being my first union job!

[breaktheory]

Originally Posted by Big Andy

The reason you would want to do a full import based off of an EDL is so you have the entire audio file right there in the timeline. It makes finding room tone much easier and it helps when you need to find alts as well.

Maybe this is the source of some of the confusion between the effects and dialogue editor roles

... as an effects editor, I would always start every project by adding appropriate room tone for the duration of the video before doing anything but this is usually my own audio that I've processed.

Should the dialogue editor's tracks solo'd be seamlessly connected through looped tone taken from production audio?

[Jfriah]

Ass't is so, so, so important. Did I mention it is important to have a good assistant? I think so, yes.

Get used to recreating original location sound from single stereo mix files in the OMF. Using the EDL will become second nature to you.

If you're ever lucky enough to work from a multichannel OMF with all location files, enjoy the experience. 95% of picture editors won't do that. I've had it once and it was the smoothest post experience ever.

Have fun assembling audio...may it go smoothly.

Jeff

[Jussi]

Should the dialogue editor's tracks solo'd be seamlessly connected through looped tone taken from production audio?

Yes, that is certainly the safest way so there are no inconsistensies in the mix.

[Lipflap]

Originally Posted by breaktheory

... as an effects editor, I would always start every project by adding appropriate room tone for the duration of the video before doing anything but this is usually my own audio that I've processed.

Should the dialogue editor's tracks solo'd be seamlessly connected through looped tone taken from production audio?

A continuous source of room tone, whether from the dialogue regions themselves or from tone that you glean from the production tracks, is vital. Only in the weirdest of circumstances can you afford holes in the tone.

Having said that, don't create a carpet of room tone that lies beneath the edited tracks, but rather weave together the dialogue and use extra tone only to facilitate mis-matched regions or fill bona fide holes. Piling together dialogue and unnecessary walls of tone only adds noise and doesn't really solve your balance problems.

Whenever possible, play only one source of tone at a time (there are a zillion exceptions to this rule, but it's a very sensible place to start).

[breaktheory]

Originally Posted by Big Andy

The reason you would want to do a full import based off of an EDL is so you have the entire audio file right there in the timeline. It makes finding room tone much easier and it helps when you need to find alts as well.

There's no question that having the entire audio file would make finding tone easier but wouldn't this convenience be at the expense of all the time you spend re-creating the timeline from an EDL?

The last project I worked on was only 20 minutes but had an OMF with substantial handles and 5 tracks for 4 lavs and a boom @ 48/24. Was there anything wrong with my editing the dialogue using the OMF? - I only needed to dive into production audio when takes were unusable and this wasn't more than 5 or 6 times.

[Lipflap]

Originally Posted by breaktheory

The last project I worked on was only 20 minutes but had an OMF with substantial handles and 5 tracks for 4 lavs and a boom @ 48/24. Was there anything wrong with my editing the dialogue using the OMF? - I only needed to dive into production audio when takes were unusable and this wasn't more than 5 or 6 times.

If your OMF is in good shape and sounds like the original recordings (very likely), and if it contains the tracks you need for editing, then there's no real reason to rebuild the timeline. Use the OMF and be happy. It's when your OMF contains only a reference track or when the OMF tracks are mysteriously screwed up that you need to reconstruct the session from original files.

[breaktheory]

Originally Posted by Jfriah

Ass't is so, so, so important. Did I mention it is important to have a good assistant? I think so, yes.

Get used to recreating original location sound from single stereo mix files in the OMF. Using the EDL will become second nature to you.

If you're ever lucky enough to work from a multichannel OMF with all location files, enjoy the experience. 95% of picture editors won't do that. I've had it once and it was the smoothest post experience ever.

Have fun assembling audio...may it go smoothly.

Jeff

Jeff, I'm in the process of learning final cut an don't see why the picture editor wouldn't include a multichannel omf...it doesn't seem to be any extra work to link the clips

[Jfriah]

Originally Posted by breaktheory

Jeff, I'm in the process of learning final cut an don't see why the picture editor wouldn't include a multichannel omf...it doesn't seem to be any extra work to link the clips

YOU, sir. Win August's QUOTE OF THE MONTH.

And I'm putting this in my 'quotes and affirmations' thread.

I just had to 'plead my case' again just yesterday to an editor who refuses to work with multichannel audio.

a conformin' we will goooo, a conformin' we will goooooo.... hi ho the derry-o...

Jeff
p.s. please say that again, break?

YOU ARE JUST LEARNING Final Cut and don't see the big deal about including multichannel audio?

[breaktheory]

Originally Posted by Jfriah

YOU, sir. Win August's QUOTE OF THE MONTH.

And I'm putting this in my 'quotes and affirmations' thread.

I just had to 'plead my case' again just yesterday to an editor who refuses to work with multichannel audio.

a conformin' we will goooo, a conformin' we will goooooo.... hi ho the derry-o...

Jeff
p.s. please say that again, break?

YOU ARE JUST LEARNING Final Cut and don't see the big deal about including multichannel audio?

[dmitri]

We seem to be the luckiest ones in the world. We work with a picture editor Sergey Berdyugin from Kazakhstan, who is super friendly to sound department. The production mixer recorded all daylies into date-specific folders, but inside these folders the files had just numbers, starting from 001 every day, no metadata. The picture editor renamed all sound daylies on import to FCP, we also renamed them and entered all scene/take metadata using Soundminer. And this picture editor even entered the correct sound roll data into his files in FCP to generate the correct EDL for us. So we reassembled everything easily with Titan. And we work several thousand miles from each other and communicate via Internet. It's a pleasure to work with such partners!