Conforming woes

[Jfriah]

Ok I'm throwing it out there in case I'm just missing something. Been awhile and the last time I had this much 'fun' with a conform, I had to line edit the EDLs for a 6 reel show.

Using TITAN for the conform (initial location audio conform to EDL). Location was recorded at 30. Shot on film. Editing was 23.976 (of course, Final Cut says '24'). I've tried all the combinations I can think of and here's the best I can get:

I can get regions to be frame accurate in Pro Tools in 23.976 to the EDL but the information within the regions is not in sync (anywhere from 3 to 7 seconds late).

If you can throw stuff out there I'd appreciate it and then either slap my forehead in "gah! stupid cold medication!" or say "tried it..."

Thanks.

Jeff

[iluvcapra]

Assuming you mean "conforming production recordings with an EDL" -- which we'd normally style "assembly" -- as opposed to "changing the reel to sync with new picture."

Do the window burns on the picture match what the EDL says? If you sync a few takes by hand, do their timestamps and roll numbers match what the EDLs say?

Can't advise you do anything with Titan until you know the EDL is accurate, and for that you need to do a couple bits by hand.

[Sonsey@mac.com]

Originally Posted by Jfriah

Ok I'm throwing it out there in case I'm just missing something. Been awhile and the last time I had this much 'fun' with a conform, I had to line edit the EDLs for a 6 reel show.

Using TITAN for the conform (initial location audio conform to EDL). Location was recorded at 30. Shot on film. Editing was 23.976 (of course, Final Cut says '24'). I've tried all the combinations I can think of and here's the best I can get:

I can get regions to be frame accurate in Pro Tools in 23.976 to the EDL but the information within the regions is not in sync (anywhere from 3 to 7 seconds late).

If you can throw stuff out there I'd appreciate it and then either slap my forehead in "gah! stupid cold medication!" or say "tried it..."

Thanks.

Jeff

Hey Jeff,

You DID remember to account for the pulldown that would have been done in the telecine to 23.976? Your audio, at 30fps, will be running too fast relative to picture...

[Jfriah]

Aye--Capra, I meant 'assemble'. Sorry; been awhile since I've personally handled assembling location sound. Normally my underlings do that for me-- haha, gotta keep sharp!

Howard-- Yeah I have tried pulling down the audio going in but...that ain't it. Something's amiss here and I am NOT about to hand-load and convert and sync this puppy.

More in the a.m.

But I do know they combined 3perf and 4perf on the shoot so will have to investigate the EDLs closer with the editor.

I hand-loaded 4 clips and the source code is nowhere near the lines in question.

Tomorrow is another day.

Jeff

[iluvcapra]

Originally Posted by Jfriah

But I do know they combined 3perf and 4perf on the shoot

That shouldn't matter so much, as long as they weren't getting fancy with the camera crystal.

Originally Posted by Jfriah

I hand-loaded 4 clips and the source code is nowhere near the lines in question.

There is no Titan setting that'll get around that. Same hour at least?

[Jfriah]

Yeah, didn't figure so. But I've pulled original location into 30fps no pull, 30fps pull down, 30fps pull up and punched in source code for EDL and the lines aren't even within 30 seconds typically.

But--what is being looked at as original timestamp on those files? Because when Pro Tools switches to pull up/pull down/no pull, the timestamp values change.

Simply not enough time on this one to load and sync by hand.

I swear I'm gonna become a potter.

[iluvcapra]

Originally Posted by Jfriah

But--what is being looked at as original timestamp on those files? Because when Pro Tools switches to pull up/pull down/no pull, the timestamp values change.
ried

The timestamp it displays in the region is the file's timestamp in samples, interpreted into timecode given the sessions's sample rate and TC. The embedded timestamp of the file is always the same: the index of the first samle (or sample frame) of the file, in an imaginary array of samples that begins with sample zero at SMPTE midnight.

The region original TC display will only match the sound recordist's reports (and the audiotime window burnin, and the ALE/FLX Sound TC column) if your session setup matches the sample rate and TC the sound recorder was running at.

[Jfriah]

Samples to timecode. Thanks-makes perfect sense. It must be that something happened in telecine or after. Or I'm just so rusty...haha. Just trying different options of sessions to pull audio into to see if any match up. So far I think I've tried all but 25. This one is a real head-scratcher. Ball's in post prod sup's hands now... I have other shows to attend! Hopefully this buys us more time on the back end. If not, haha, a 5.1 feature with married stereo Dia!

thumbsup

[Sonsey@mac.com]

Hey Jeff,

Here's a thought...If they ingested both the audio and video from the tapes (a good guess since they're cutting at 23.976), then those TC's on the EDL probably refer to the TC's on the VIDEO tape, NOT on your Audio DATS... If the pic's in Final Cut, they should be able to generate a PROPER Audio EDL from Cinema Tools..There's a similar workflow in AVID, I just don't know what they call it. Of course this is all assuming the ALE/FLX was properly filled out in the first place, which doesn't always happen...

[Jfriah]

Not surprising, Howard. Everything was going so well last week when I received test files and gave OMF test and EDL outputs a visual once-over. Everything was well-split out and labeled but we knew we'd have to assemble audio from the film shoot. I knew it was going too well...


That's what I'm thinking, too! Something made a video transfer or double transfer but...the original codes for location sound definitely have frame counts above 23 so it is 29.97 or 30 for sure.

But--and probably obviously--timecode for audio and picture don't match because, for instance, it was SR 22 and FR 180, code at 14hr and 20hr. I'm having ass't ed. send me screenshots of Cinema Tools DB today.

(shrug)

and


p.s. the location sound is files, not DAT (whew!)

[Jfriah]

Originally Posted by Sonsey@mac.com

Hey Jeff,

Here's a thought...If they ingested both the audio and video from the tapes (a good guess since they're cutting at 23.976), then those TC's on the EDL probably refer to the TC's on the VIDEO tape, NOT on your Audio DATS... If the pic's in Final Cut, they should be able to generate a PROPER Audio EDL from Cinema Tools..There's a similar workflow in AVID, I just don't know what they call it. Of course this is all assuming the ALE/FLX was properly filled out in the first place, which doesn't always happen...

by the way, you said "Final Cut" and "PROPER" in the same sentence.

F.C.P.

[Sonsey@mac.com]

Originally Posted by Jfriah

p.s. the location sound is files, not DAT (whew!)

Whoops! Showing my age there! At least I didn't say 1/4"!

[Jfriah]

Ok--the latest is: turns out I was given "24fps" (23.976 which Final Cut lovingly calls 24) EDLs... that's why the location codes were not matching up. So I asked for 30fps EDLs and--hey, look! Proper lines of dialogue are pulled in.

But--yeah, the 30fps EDLs do not have proper destination timecode now based on the 23.976 PICTURE I am working to. Things are now 'in the ballpark' but frames out of sync.

Thoughts? Just git on the horse and re-sync, run a sync-adjuster, or...
nah...can't ask for new picture, hahaha, we're only one step in the chain.



Howard, yes, film footage was telecined and the audio pulled down; then reverse telecine was done to go back to "24" in final cut (pulling audio up again?).

Jeff

[Jfriah]

Originally Posted by Sonsey@mac.com

Whoops! Showing my age there! At least I didn't say 1/4"!

Nagra pilot tone vs triple stripe mag dailies...NOW yer talkin'!!!

[Sonsey@mac.com]

Originally Posted by Jfriah

Thoughts? Just git on the horse and re-sync, run a sync-adjuster, or...
nah...can't ask for new picture, hahaha, we're only one step in the chain.



Howard, yes, film footage was telecined and the audio pulled down; then reverse telecine was done to go back to "24" in final cut (pulling audio up again?).

Jeff

I think given how much time you'll spend chasing down folks, just git on the horse! At the end of the day it will probably be LESS time...

As far as the reverse telecine, that doesn't go to 23.976 it goes back to TRUE 24fps, and yes, it will pull the audio back up. It also means you can end up dealing with all the issues that entails! The idea is that you get a 1 for 1 frame count, when you generate your cut lists for the negative reconform. However, the process is INCREDIBLY easy to screw up if you don't know what you're doing... ( I learned it the hard way back when it was still Film Logic).

<Yoda Voice>

A disturbance in the force I sense... much work do I forsee for you!

[Jfriah]

Huzzah. A simple (he says...) assembly of source 30fps no pull to 29.97ndf no pull --all from a new 30fps EDL--, into pro tools, switch session to 23.976 gives:

Good phasey dialogue.

Giddyap.



I swear to you I will work with clay, using my hands, in the peaceful environ of an evening sun-lit space someday sooner than later.

Again, to point out a funny. You said 'film' and 'logic' in the same sentence.

Jeff



THANKS for assistance in all this, Jedi Masters.

[Sonsey@mac.com]

Originally Posted by Jfriah

Huzzah. A simple (he says...) assembly of source 30fps no pull to 29.97ndf no pull --all from a new 30fps EDL--, into pro tools, switch session to 23.976 gives:

Good phasey dialogue.

Giddyap.



I swear to you I will work with clay, using my hands, in the peaceful environ of an evening sun-lit space someday sooner than later.

Again, to point out a funny. You said 'film' and 'logic' in the same sentence.

Jeff



THANKS for assistance in all this, Jedi Masters.

Strong with the force you are!

FilmLogic... we often questioned the name of the product when we used it! Maybe THAT's why Apple changed it to Cinema Tools...

[Jfriah]

Not to draw fire, but today: why not--

Hah, you said "Apple" and "Tools"




Anyway, for today this Padawan is off to round up a Bantha to ride through these assembles now.

Later!



Jeff
(makes me rethink my signature today...I have been sufficiently scared)