The diffrence between music mixiing to film music mixing

[Dumb-Ask]

A few years ago i read a very interesting thread in the logic forum which was written by a composer who explains how he and the music mixer mix music for film and how it's different from the topical music mixing. he was also speaking about narrower panning especially with in the arrangement stage where lead instruments are not very wide and all sorts of things to give the film space and make the music sound like its coming from a film.

In your opinion how is music mixed and arranged for film is different then typical music mixing?

[drBill]

#1 rule - NOTHING gets in the way of dialog.

That means mixing little things that like to poke out and get in the way (like oboes, shakers, etc.) are mixed waaaaaaay back in the mix. Strangely back for a music mix. It should be big, fat, midrangey and round. Those mixes will generally stand up to FX, car chases, dialog, etc. Too bright and it will get pulled back. Too much bottom, and it will get in the way of fx. ALWAYS mix under dialog. Or at least CHECK under the dialog. At low volumes. I'll put dialog & fx on one stereo console bus and music on another so I can easily pull music under and see how it's working, what's competing, etc. without changing automation or individual instrument or stem levels.

#2 rule - Mix in stems.

That way when you mess up, or when the director decides he HATES what he loved last week, it can easily be removed without necessitating an all night remix. Anything that is "iffy" get's it's own stem, or grouped with other elements may get axed in the mix. Go overboard if possible here. Stems can always be submixed on stage, but they can't be broken out if mixed together. Especially if being fed on a music editors rig. Submixing onstage is easy, flexible and can save your butt.

#2A rule - All stems get their FX - verb, delays, etc. printed with the stem.

NO CROSS POLLINATION OF VERBS / DELAYS / ETC. That will mean multiple passes, LOADS of hardware, or a very powerful computer capable of hosting 10+ 5.1 verbs.

#3 rule - Melody gets edited around dialog (see rule #1)

If the melody has much motion under dialog, it either gets pulled way back, turned off, or cut-moved-modified away from the dialog.

#4 rule - when delivering LCR or LCRLsRsLFE, stay OUT of the center channel. (See rule #1)

In addition, keep action forward. Pads and ambience can be cheated rearwards, but not much action there unless the director is after specific effect. Keep all motion in the L/R speakers, or at most, cheated slightly rearward. (Exception - Imax or 5.1 mixes where the director/producers are forward thinking and want wild FX. Sadly (for us mixers anyway) this rarely happens.

#5 rule - screw your musical vision and make the director happy. This is a service business, not a artistic statement. Well, it is an artistic statement, but not at the expense of dialog or directorial whim. Follow your director. Try to lead him by the throat to realize your artistic genius, and it will be your last picture for that director.

#6 rule - Constantly check against dialog and SFX.

Try to get an up to date dub of the film with dialog L and SFX R. That will allow you to monitor both while writing and mixing.

Opinion - I don't mix narrow. If anything, I'll go wide. They can always pull it in. They can't easily widen it. See rule #1 - stay AWAY from dialog. Dialog is 99.9% in the middle. Melody instruments in the middle violate that rule.

[Dumb-Ask]

Hi bill,

Thank you so much for sharing your wisdom with this great explanation that's really interesting and makes a lot of sense,

Cheers

[Berolzheimer]

Great summation, Bill. Those comments in the first post about narrowing the panning are exactly wrong. STAY AWAY FROM THE DIALOG if you want your music audible in the final. Stems, yes, & especially make sure melodic instruments are separate, for the reasons Bill stated above.

[kamikaze]

Bill, great post!

Thanks

[Dumb-Ask]

Berolzheimer I think the guy was referring to lead instruments that may sound odd being paned hard left or right but I could be wrong.

[dr.sound]

Originally Posted by drBill

#1 rule - NOTHING gets in the way of dialog.

That means mixing little things that like to poke out and get in the way (like oboes, shakers, etc.) are mixed waaaaaaay back in the mix. Strangely back for a music mix. It should be big, fat, midrangey and round. Those mixes will generally stand up to FX, car chases, dialog, etc. Too bright and it will get pulled back. Too much bottom, and it will get in the way of fx. ALWAYS mix under dialog. Or at least CHECK under the dialog. At low volumes. I'll put dialog & fx on one stereo console bus and music on another so I can easily pull music under and see how it's working, what's competing, etc. without changing automation or individual instrument or stem levels.

#2 rule - Mix in stems.

That way when you mess up, or when the director decides he HATES what he loved last week, it can easily be removed without necessitating an all night remix. Anything that is "iffy" get's it's own stem, or grouped with other elements may get axed in the mix. Go overboard if possible here. Stems can always be submixed on stage, but they can't be broken out if mixed together. Especially if being fed on a music editors rig. Submixing onstage is easy, flexible and can save your butt.

#2A rule - All stems get their FX - verb, delays, etc. printed with the stem.

NO CROSS POLLINATION OF VERBS / DELAYS / ETC. That will mean multiple passes, LOADS of hardware, or a very powerful computer capable of hosting 10+ 5.1 verbs.

#3 rule - Melody gets edited around dialog (see rule #1)

If the melody has much motion under dialog, it either gets pulled way back, turned off, or cut-moved-modified away from the dialog.

#4 rule - when delivering LCR or LCRLsRsLFE, stay OUT of the center channel. (See rule #1)

In addition, keep action forward. Pads and ambience can be cheated rearwards, but not much action there unless the director is after specific effect. Keep all motion in the L/R speakers, or at most, cheated slightly rearward. (Exception - Imax or 5.1 mixes where the director/producers are forward thinking and want wild FX. Sadly (for us mixers anyway) this rarely happens.

#5 rule - screw your musical vision and make the director happy. This is a service business, not a artistic statement. Well, it is an artistic statement, but not at the expense of dialog or directorial whim. Follow your director. Try to lead him by the throat to realize your artistic genius, and it will be your last picture for that director.

#6 rule - Constantly check against dialog and SFX.

Try to get an up to date dub of the film with dialog L and SFX R. That will allow you to monitor both while writing and mixing.

Opinion - I don't mix narrow. If anything, I'll go wide. They can always pull it in. They can't easily widen it. See rule #1 - stay AWAY from dialog. Dialog is 99.9% in the middle. Melody instruments in the middle violate that rule.

Bill,
GREAT POST! WELL SAID !thumbsup thumbsup

[Extreme Mixing]

I agree with all the things that Bill said above. I would also add that music for film should not be limited or compressed too heavily. There is no point turning it up 12 or 15 db with a limiter. In fact, it can't be used that way. Given the dolby specs, it has to be turned down. By limiting, you remove all of those peaks that might reach up through the production.

Steve

[ErikG]

I just finished mixing a feature score score tonight (alright almost, four cues left) and I only use dynamics when needed in a creative aspect, not for level control per se.
So I fully agree with all the guys above.
I sorely miss the old DBX 120 I used to have for the film I worked on theese last two weeks. I'll buy my own blody lowender for PT if I have to ( I have it in VST for Nuendo). It was sorely missed today.
But realtime mixing in PT8LE is not much fun compared to Nuendo. Ill see if I can convince the composer to let me mix the next one i Nuendo. That would simplify a lot of things.