Neve DFC Gemini Vs SSL C300

[Centauri]

Dear all,

I'm currently looking for opinions of users who used one or both consoles.

Maybe its a good idea to have a list of the "likes" and "dislikes" of both consoles? I'm particular talking about work-flow, functionality and dynamics.. The C300 is a much younger console than the DFC Gemini and the DFC is also much more populated in post than the C300 of SSL.

It will be used mainly for TV/DVD/Commercials/Sound Design and Trailers.
I'm a little stuck in what console to go for and I'm sure someone somewhere used both to compare better than I can at this point.

Thank you for your time.

Best Regards,
Tim

[ErikG]

As biased as I am...
We went ITB mixing three years ago, and we haven't looked back...
We mix feature films, TV series and trailers. Its all done ITB.

We work with multiple systems so it might not be seen as a "true ITB" way of working.

For your kind of work I wouldn't really even think about considering anything else. Get a good controller that works well with your favourite DAW.
We use a Euphonix S5MC as we are using Nuendo more and more theese days. But if in a totally PT workflow it would be silly to get anything but a Icon. I have yeta to see how a Smart console Tango works with PT.
If I personally had the money to choose a mid scale controller today it would probably be a Tango.

Just my 2 swedish krona, and worth little they are...

[Centauri]

Originally Posted by ErikG

As biased as I am...
We went ITB mixing three years ago, and we haven't looked back...
We mix feature films, TV series and trailers. Its all done ITB.

We work with multiple systems so it might not be seen as a "true ITB" way of working.

For your kind of work I wouldn't really even think about considering anything else. Get a good controller that works well with your favourite DAW.
We use a Euphonix S5MC as we are using Nuendo more and more theese days. But if in a totally PT workflow it would be silly to get anything but a Icon. I have yeta to see how a Smart console Tango works with PT.
If I personally had the money to choose a mid scale controller today it would probably be a Tango.

Just my 2 swedish krona, and worth little they are...

Thank you for your reply! Well, even post production video is mixing ITB these days and as a post production sound studio I want to offer that little extra that makes the difference.

Although that Tango looks cool :-)

[ErikG]

Just thinking out loud...
Reconforming mixes in ProTools or Nuendo is easy
Reconforming mixes an DFC or SSL, not quite so easy I guess (I have no experience of SSL consoles since 4000G)

Having a project backed up where all assets go together on one kind of backup system. Where and how is the automation backed up on DFC/SSL? can it access standard server storage or does it nead intermediate storage?

But there are good things with a real console as well of course.
Projects opens faster on the DAW's since there is less automation and plugins in them. Monitoring is not depending on A specific computer actually running.
Hardware metering is quite nice to have as well.

[BenLoftis]

May I ask why a Harrison console is not on your list?

We have a new reconform function which loads a simple EDL and edits the mix automation to it. Or you can manually make a list of operations and then click "apply" for all 3 users ( music, dialog, and effects) on a multi-user console. We recently added the ability to copy/paste across mix files (reels) so that you can move from the head of one reel to the tail of another.

We also provide waveforms over every track so you can see cues as they are approaching.

The combintation of these 2 features gives you the most-touted benefits of a workstation ("in the box").

-Ben Loftis
Harrison Consoles
harrisonconsoles.com - Home

[Centauri]

Originally Posted by ErikG

Just thinking out loud...
Reconforming mixes in ProTools or Nuendo is easy
Reconforming mixes an DFC or SSL, not quite so easy I guess (I have no experience of SSL consoles since 4000G)

Having a project backed up where all assets go together on one kind of backup system. Where and how is the automation backed up on DFC/SSL? can it access standard server storage or does it nead intermediate storage?

But there are good things with a real console as well of course.
Projects opens faster on the DAW's since there is less automation and plugins in them. Monitoring is not depending on A specific computer actually running.
Hardware metering is quite nice to have as well.

Good question... no idea how this is or can be backup-ed on these consoles. From what I hear from you I think you prefer to mix ITB :-).

Thank you for you input!

[Centauri]

Originally Posted by BenLoftis

May I ask why a Harrison console is not on your list?

We have a new reconform function which loads a simple EDL and edits the mix automation to it. Or you can manually make a list of operations and then click "apply" for all 3 users ( music, dialog, and effects) on a multi-user console. We recently added the ability to copy/paste across mix files (reels) so that you can move from the head of one reel to the tail of another.

We also provide waveforms over every track so you can see cues as they are approaching.

The combintation of these 2 features gives you the most-touted benefits of a workstation ("in the box").

-Ben Loftis
Harrison Consoles
harrisonconsoles.com - Home

Hi Ben,

I'm not really familiar with Harrison but I'm willing to learn more about it. Please PM me I will send you the configuration I'm looking for.

Best,
Tim

[fezza]

Originally Posted by 7.1

Good question... no idea how this is or can be backup-ed on these consoles. From what I hear from you I think you prefer to mix ITB :-).

Thank you for you input!

DFC is pretty easy, can back up projects to any share you can map as a drive.

[rattofthecapital]

Hey Tim. I've mixed countless hours of TV post on the only C300 here in London. Great console, insanely flexible and configurable, stelar sound. No hands on experience of the DFC though.

PM me if you have any specific questions about the desk. If you can make it across to SSL HQ in England I recommend you get a proper demo - SSL are a nice friendly bunch and will take you through everything first hand.

Best, matt.

[Centauri]

Originally Posted by ferrisio

DFC is pretty easy, can back up projects to any share you can map as a drive.

That's one thing the SSL can't do. They can only back up on Media Cards (as far as I can see in the manual). How are your experiences with the DFC?

Without any doubt both consoles are great but I really need to make the right decision for the studio.

Cheers,
Tim

[Matt Syson]

Hi
Since you will be laying out serious cash, book yourself into studios that use each of the contenders for half a day or so and 'play' and visit SSL/ other contenders. A few hundred spent really researching would be well spent, and might even be fun!
Matt S

[Henchman]

For your type of work you might want to check out the Fairlight stuff.

[kister]

AMS are touting that the DFC Gemini now can be used as a DAW controller too. I see that on their website they are saying that they support " ....control of Pro Tools™, Nuendo, Pyramix™ and Oasis™ systems"
Definitely worth seeing these working if you go down the DFO route as this would enable you do also mix ITB.
K

[nathand]

Originally Posted by Henchman

For your type of work you might want to check out the Fairlight stuff.

Welcome To Fairlight US - Provider of Professional Audio Production Solutions

Wow!!!

[Geert van den Berg]

Originally Posted by 7.1

It will be used mainly for TV/DVD/Commercials/Sound Design and Trailers.
I'm a little stuck in what console to go for

I would go with an integrated solution:
-editting and mixing in one box and recall with the press of a button,
-fast copying of sounds/edits AND mixdata between projects.
-Import of OMF/AAF. Maybe EDL conform, when expanding more into film mixing.
-Quick access to your soundlibraries.

-Fairlight
-Nuendo with Smart AV Tango or Euphonix.
(the Tango is fantastic and a very affordable option, I've got one, feel free to ask anything about it, I've used it with Logic for a while, but have recently switched to Nuendo, which works great together)
-Maybe even Pro Tools Icon (it's still the standard, handy for collaboration or when there are freelancers in the house)

[ggegan]

Todd AO sent Ron Bartlett and I to Burnley, England to spec out the first 2 DFCs to be installed in LA for feature film mixing. Although it was a rough start, I came to really appreciate how revolutionary it was at the time, and that the sound of the processing was and is second to none.

However, that was at least a dozen years ago and although Neve has upgraded the console, there are a number of new systems that have taken things to a whole new level.

In terms of "conventional" fully automated digital consoles, both the Euphonix hybrid and the new SSL both have taken the next step to attempt to control the original session automation. However, why not just go to the source and use the console developed by Pro Tools? It is totally integrated with the source session, as long as you work with Pro Tools as your source.

If you prefer Nuendo, then Euphonix is probably a better choice, but for Pro Tools based post production, there is no better console than the ICON.

[Centauri]

Originally Posted by kister

AMS are touting that the DFC Gemini now can be used as a DAW controller too. I see that on their website they are saying that they support " ....control of Pro Tools™, Nuendo, Pyramix™ and Oasis™ systems"
Definitely worth seeing these working if you go down the DFO route as this would enable you do also mix ITB.
K

Yes indeed, its called the star command function on the consoles. This way you switch via HUI to ProTools.

But still not full functionality as the icon has... I've been told that via HUI it only allows you to use the same controls of the Command 8.

[Centauri]

Originally Posted by nathand

Welcome To Fairlight US - Provider of Professional Audio Production Solutions

Wow!!!

This machine really looks amazing! Anyone used it?

[nathand]

Originally Posted by 7.1

This machine really looks amazing! Anyone used it?

They'll be showing it at NAB. A couple of Fairlight distributors have systems set-up but nobody is currently running one as far as I know.

A few of us on these boards are running CC-1 / Constellation XCS systems. This set-up lacks the new in-line panel and EVO screens.

[smurfyou]

Originally Posted by nathand

They'll be showing it at NAB. A couple of Fairlight distributors have systems set-up but nobody is currently running one as far as I know.

A few of us on these boards are running CC-1 / Constellation XCS systems. This set-up lacks the new in-line panel and EVO screens.

CC-1 Constellation (binnacle) user here. The new EVO looks like they're aiming for the Euphonix users. I certainly wouldn't mind trying it out.

[kister]

Originally Posted by 7.1

Yes indeed, its called the star command function on the consoles. This way you switch via HUI to ProTools.

But still not full functionality as the icon has... I've been told that via HUI it only allows you to use the same controls of the Command 8.

Ah Command 32?
Like to know how the Oasis and Nuendo control works. Anyone any experience?

[OptyxProduction]

I wanna start by saying I have no issues with any console company, especially Harrison, AMS Neve/Neve, or SSL. But it strikes me in todays multi-format post production situation a console approach might be more difficult than using a strictly ITB setup. If your asked to recall the project you want everything to be the exact same as when u left it. Unless the console is either digital or every knob is hooked up to a motor and sensor system recalling a project could be time consuming. Now I could be wrong about things and often am. ITB with a control surface when u say open everything goes back to how you last left it, so whatever time it takes for PT Nuendo Logic or DP to open the session is the recall time.

Now for the sound I'll give consoles their credit there are times where they sound amazing in there application and work GREAT. But reacall on one of the large Harrison 700+ input consoles YEAH that just sounds. I'm not slamming it and if I'm wrong the Harrison SSL and Neve folks are welcome to school me. My point is if you apply the console gain staging needed to a strictly ITB solution then why not do that and use the incredible work flow increasing productivity.


Just my thoughts on the whole thing. Its your money so do what makes sense to you I won't say anything negative about it.

[BenLoftis]

Hi Optyx,

Big film dubbing consoles are digital, so the recall is "instant". Console recall is generally faster than opening a session in a DAW, because you're just loading a set of knob settings, not a bunch of wave files and plugins.

We've been told that when a fast workflow is the deciding factor, then Console+DAW(s) will always win over an in-the-box solution. The finer separation of the "undo" history, and the ability to treat the music/dialog/effects as separate assets are often-overlooked points.

For many years, workstations have been struggling to catch up with console features. They are getting close, but console manufacturers haven't been sitting around idle during that time! We've incorporated all the touted benefits of working "in the box": reconforming, waveforms, and plugins. For example, we're doing a collaboration with Soundmaster that allows the user to simultaneously reconform all the connected PT sessions and the console automation in a single operation.

-Ben Loftis
Harrison Consoles
harrisonconsoles.com - Home

[dr.sound]

Originally Posted by BenLoftis

Hi Optyx,

Big film dubbing consoles are digital, so the recall is "instant". Console recall is generally faster than opening a session in a DAW, because you're just loading a set of knob settings, not a bunch of wave files and plugins.

We've been told that when a fast workflow is the deciding factor, then Console+DAW(s) will always win over an in-the-box solution. The finer separation of the "undo" history, and the ability to treat the music/dialog/effects as separate assets are often-overlooked points.

For many years, workstations have been struggling to catch up with console features. They are getting close, but console manufacturers haven't been sitting around idle during that time! We've incorporated all the touted benefits of working "in the box": reconforming, waveforms, and plugins. For example, we're doing a collaboration with Soundmaster that allows the user to simultaneously reconform all the connected PT sessions and the console automation in a single operation.

-Ben Loftis
Harrison Consoles
harrisonconsoles.com - Home

Ben,
Instead of pointing out the plus and minus's of each platform here, will you be at NAB on Monday at your booth?
I would love to discuss some things with you and see what's new at Harrison.
Take care,

[studjo]

Originally Posted by BenLoftis

Big film dubbing consoles are digital, so the recall is "instant".
-Ben Loftis
Harrison Consoles
harrisonconsoles.com - Home

well don't hide what you guys did with the S12 - unmatched by anyone (Euphonix tried it at least everybody else is still rubbing their eyes how you guys did it )
digtially controlled analog console - no motors involved by the way - recalls faster than my PT rig - way way way faster
I whish you guys would still work on that technology to make it wider available but I guess you have your reason not to follow that route

[BenLoftis]

@dr. sound:

Unfortunately I won't be at NAB this year but I'll get you connected with Gary.

@studjo:

Development is continuing ... the LPC was a refinement on the technology of the S12 .. but the cost of this technology, done right, is staggering by today's standards. We look forward to a time when we can cost-effectively develop the S12 further. Until then we will continue to sell refurbished systems at a significant discount, when we can get them. You've got something really special, there...

-Ben

[studjo]

Originally Posted by BenLoftis

We look forward to a time when we can cost-effectively develop the S12 further. Until then we will continue to sell refurbished systems at a significant discount, when we can get them. You've got something really special, there...

-Ben

I hope that time comes soon though I kinda doubt it but you see part of those S12 ideas in some smaller products of other companies. I hope you guys can find ways to make money out of those older achievements.

"Harry" is very special not only from the technology but also I really like the sound of this console - it's hard to work on anything else

[dr.sound]

Originally Posted by BenLoftis

@dr. sound:

Unfortunately I won't be at NAB this year but I'll get you connected with Gary.

-Ben

Ben,
I will stop by and talk with Gary at the show. He's a great guy.
I'll call you on the phone at the end of next week to discuss your post
comments you made above.

Take Care,

[Centauri]

Originally Posted by Centauri

Dear all,

I'm currently looking for opinions of users who used one or both consoles.

Maybe its a good idea to have a list of the "likes" and "dislikes" of both consoles? I'm particular talking about work-flow, functionality and dynamics.. The C300 is a much younger console than the DFC Gemini and the DFC is also much more populated in post than the C300 of SSL.

It will be used mainly for TV/DVD/Commercials/Sound Design and Trailers.
I'm a little stuck in what console to go for and I'm sure someone somewhere used both to compare better than I can at this point.

Thank you for your time.

Best Regards,
Tim

Dear all,

At the end I decided to go for the C300. Its on order now and will be delivered in September!

Cheers,
Tim

[Henchman]

With Avid opening up Pro-Tools , I'm sure you'll see expanded controls on the 300 in the future