Starting out: Pro Tools vs Pro Tools vs ???

[astralplayin]

QUESTIONS

I'm interested in studying post, and am looking for advice on a DAW.

Here's what I've gathered from surfing the forums here:
- for post, or any complex mixing projects, Pro Tools or Nuendo are the most capable
- for music creation/sequencing, Pro Tools probably wouldn't be the 1st choice

My 1st choice for DAW was going to be Logic because it contains STP, is cheap (for me really cheap as I can buy it with points I already have on my AMEX card), and I'm planning on getting FC Studio. But my research is telling me PT is the better choice for post for a number of reasons (though I also have an interest in music creation, which Logic would be useful for).

So, I'm trying to wrap my head around all the Pro Tools versions and options and am finding it quite confusing.

Can anyone point me to a PT primer that does in-depth comparison of all versions and options? Digidesigns site doesn't seem to have it.

Some of my concerns/questions:
- PT requires you to buy their hardware for outboard ADCs? If this is true I'd find it a bit disturbing. What if I want to use Weiss, Lavry, Benchmark for analog input? (I know that in some post jobs there may not be ANY analog input; I'm asking because I'm also interested in music recording.)

- Will LE be sufficient for learning purposes, or am I going get frustrated running into it's limits? Is it better to start with HD?


Thanks for listening


--------
ABOUT ME
I've been working in IT as programmer, sysadmin doing web hosting, colo, audio/video streaming and am wanting to shift my biz from infrastructure to creative.

Got my degree in Music T&C and also took recording courses (way back in the day when DATs were illegal and we had to print the ADC output to videotape).

I'm also an audiophile so am interested in getting the highest quality signal for any audio tracks. If I was going to start my own studio, this would be a priority for me.

An old dream of mine is to make films, and I figure this is a step in that direction (still interested in post and music recording whether or not it happens). Been reading books on filmmaking and post, currently working on 'Audio Post for Film and Video' by Jay Rose.

Currently have a 24" iMac and Mac Pro Quad available for DAW.

[macaholic]

If you are just starting out, and want to lean post, it's probably smartest to use what most other folks are using: Pro Tools.

A new M-Box Mini will let you learn the basics, and Pro Tools LE is an incredibly capable system, especially to learn on, and the keyboard shortcuts are mostly the same as HD. Don't try to get too far ahead of yourself with concerns over ADC etc...

$250-$300 is an incredibly inexpensive way to start in Pro Tools!!

While you are at it I suggest you start your library now:

David Yewdall's The Practical Art Of Motion Picture Sound and John Purcell's incredible book Dialoge Editing for Motion Pictures, should be in everyones collection.

[sunnysound]

further to macaholic's reply, protools LE is a complete subset of protools HD - practically everything works exactly the same in both versions - HD just gives you more extensive options in the software, mainly to do with the handling of Automation. The HD hardware is obviously far more versatile, gives you the ability to have vastly more physical I/O, and also hosts "TDM" plugins in it's own DSP (though some say that's less of an issue nowadays with the capability of current processors).

As for your ADC concerns - if you get an MBox 2 'standard' or 'pro', you get 2 channels of SPDF I/O, so you can use your own ADCs. If you spend a bit more for a second-hand 002-series, or new 003-series interface (either the desktop one with faders or the rackmount one without faders in either case), you get 8 channels of ADAT I/O and 2 channels of SPDF I/O on top of the 8 channels of on-board ADCs (for a maximum of the 18 channels in / 18 channels out allowed by the LE platform - you can't have multiple interfaces. Thus you can run 10 channels of your chosen ADC.

Any more than that, you need HD, which is hugely expandable. This involves DSP cards in a MacPro and then rackmount interfaces that plug into the cards. You can buy the Digidesign Digital interfaces and use your 'designer' ADCs or Prism make a 'high-end' interface line that plugs straight into the HD cards.

LE will run just fine on either of your macs - the latest i5/i7 iMacs are experiencing some issues with protools that seem to be due to the USB architecture and internal hubbing Apple have chosen, so do your research if you have one of them. If you do buy LE, especially from a Music Retailer, you will see a more expensive "+Factory" option for the bigger interfaces. This is simply an extra suite of Plugins that may be of value for contemporary music but of little interest to Post users. Save the extra money for the DV Toolkit or Complete Toolkit add-ons (read about them on the Digi website), one of which you WILL want before too long if you want to do Post work (though they're not at all essential for learning the system).

cheers,
sunnysound

[Jay-]

Well if your still studying then you could use anything.
They all will have the basic post audio concepts, even Reaper, sonar, cubase, nuendo. You can always learn PT LE and learn Logic.

I mean your not saying you need a HD rig for business?

Its all the same to me, and then it gets down to fan boy and the pros need the larger high end stuff.

Im a devout fan of Avid Media composer and it was what I learned on.
There is a chance you can get addicted to one application.,

[mikevarela]

My advice would be to ask yourself what you want to do.

If you're a musician looking at creating score and music, get Logic, it comes with everything you need and is a wonderful package, plus it's pretty cheap.

If you're interested in mixing and editing, especially for post, then hands down, you should get acquainted with Pro Tools, and an Mbox would be fine. Don't worry about DAC's cause you're clients aren't - and they sound fine as is. If you're interested in doing any type of surround then you'll have to pony up and at least get the mbox pro or 003 (or used 002) plus the complete production toolkit. But this also means more speakers and a lot more money.

If I were you, I'd future proof myself and just get the rack. But it's 1100, and no doubt you'll be looking at plugins like the waves bundle which will add to the cost.

In post it all adds up very quickly, so try and only buy when the needs arise. Try and take on projects that pay, use the money to invest in new kit.

[Etch-A-Sketch]

Originally Posted by astralplayin

- Will LE be sufficient for learning purposes, or am I going get frustrated running into it's limits? Is it better to start with HD?

Logic Express vs Logic Pro... Logic Express is so stripped down it is frustrating to even try to use.

Cubase LE vs Cubase SX... Cubase LE is so stripped down it is frustrating to even try to use.

Protools LE vs Protools HD... Protools LE has 98% of the functions that are in Protools HD. LE isn't designed as a "lite" version with the only purpose to entice/frustrate you into upgrading. The focus of the LE is completely different. LE is an end product/top of the line in and of itself. Most people will not/do not need the advantages that an HD system gives you. So for that "majority" of people, LE is more than sufficient.

For doing post, there are some features in HD that would be helpful in LE... so Digi created a DV toolkit addon for LE to give you those features (like OMF import, Timecode and Feet:frames rulers, expanded import session data options).

To break down the major difference... PTLE "runs" on your host computer. PTHD "runs" on its own PCIe cards that are placed inside the computer. This means that a PTHD system performs the same whether it is in an old G5 or a brand new 8core mac, but the PTLE system will have much different performance on the newer mac. also, the fact that the internal workings of PTHD are running on a "card" and not the computer's CPU, gives Protools HD the ability to do some things that it wouldn't be able to do if it were dependent on the OS. Things like DSP chips to run plugins separate from the Host CPU (similar to Universal Audio's UAD card concept), low latency monitoring and modular/expandable IO (similar to Apogee Symphony concept and/or Motu's 424 series), all combined into one system. Does everyone "need" all of these different concepts combined into one software/hardware solution? No... but for those that do, find it invaluable.

So for most people LE will work for them. For a small minority, they will need the additional power and benefits of HD.

[astralplayin]

Originally Posted by macaholic

to start in Pro Tools!!
While you are at it I suggest you start your library now:

David Yewdall's The Practical Art Of Motion Picture Sound and John Purcell's incredible book Dialoge Editing for Motion Pictures, should be in everyones collection.

Thanks.

"Dialogue Editing" was already on my to-get list, but I'll add the other.

[astralplayin]

Originally Posted by sunnysound

As for your ADC concerns - if you get an MBox 2 'standard' or 'pro', you get 2 channels of SPDF I/O, so you can use your own ADCs.

That's what I needed to hear; thanks.

[astralplayin]

Originally Posted by Jay-

I mean your not saying you need a HD rig for business?

Not yet, but eventually. Either for my self, or to work in studio.

[astralplayin]

Originally Posted by Etch-A-Sketch

Protools LE vs Protools HD... Protools LE has 98% of the functions that are in Protools HD.

That I also needed to hear.

PTLE "runs" on your host computer. PTHD "runs" on its own PCIe cards that are placed inside the computer. This means that a PTHD system performs the same whether it is in an old G5 or a brand new 8core mac, but the PTLE system will have much different performance on the newer mac.

Nifty. I'm typing this now on an 'old' G5. Good to know.

[Brent_in_Sydney]

Caveat: (Im ex Digi of 7 years, bleed PT, and have never used Logic)
As far as many learned colleagures of mine have to say, with the PT8 upgrade, the new sibelius integration, the score and midi editors and the new VIs and FX, PT8 is a very strong competitor with logic when it comes to composition and scoring.
Also throw in elastic audio and tempo map control of your audio as if it was midi and its very powerful. Dont discount PT from the scoring and composition race based on opinions that date back to PT5 and 6.x. 8 is a very different beast for the composer IMHO.

[Jfriah]

...most of us bleed FROM pro tools...
(chuckle)

Jeff

[ErikG]

As a PT user of some 15 years, I choose to switch to Nuendo three years ago.
But they are all just tools, they aqll hammer the nails in. If having what everyone els has is important, then go with PT.
If a faster workflow is important I'd suggesat spending some time with Nuendo and a Nuendo power user. I have access to a number of PT systems and Nuendo, and I choose Nuendo every time i can!

[Big Andy]

Originally Posted by Jfriah

...most of us bleed FROM pro tools...
(chuckle)

Jeff

LOL. It's funny isn't it. We all understand this language that is protools. We all know it's faults and it's glories. For example: I have an HD5 system at home that just told me I couldn't create a mono send because there was no more DSP. I told my machine to F*** right off.

It's a different world we sound people live in, but we are here together.

[livelearnplay]

Originally Posted by Jfriah

...most of us bleed FROM pro tools...
(chuckle)

Jeff

Definitely true. Especially if its not working the way you want it to.

[Frank S.]

Op -
I've been a Fairlight guy for about 10 years and just recently purchased a Pro Tools setup for my home. PT is the "standard" and thus the best bet for you to learn post on. You will find a lot more info to guide you along the way since there are more PT users in post than other platforms. If it's any help here's what I bought:

21.5" IMac - 500GB, 4MB Ram
Digi 003 Rack
Complete Production Toolkit
Dynaudio BM5A monitors

This will allow me to do music on the side for fun (and extra cash) AND learn the PT workflow for post. I spent a little more than you need to but even the $5k I spent is really nothing in the scheme of things.

Good luck on your quest.

[danika]

Originally Posted by macaholic

$250-$300 is an incredibly inexpensive way to start in Pro Tools!!

And what about the $1295 for the DV Toolkit?

[gmarinov]

Originally Posted by danika

And what about the $1295 for the DV Toolkit?

ebay

[Tragicdog]

Originally Posted by gmarinov

ebay

Speaking of Ebay, I have seen 002s for under 500, some as low as 110... dv toolkit as low as 550 (not sure though if they are upgrades or full installs, would have to ask the seller). that would be 1k for a full featured LE rig, that will take you quite far.

[Fred Pearson]

If you're considering PTLE - then you're definitely going to want to invest in an interface with at least 6 outputs. This allows you to upgrade with the Complete Production Toolkit in the future to add 5.1 surround capability (almost an essential in Post, no?).

This therefore, leaves you with three options:
MBOX 2 Pro
002 Rack
003 Rack

Either are good solutions and depend on your I/O needs. Take a look at each and figure out what is best for you.

Oh and btw, to the guy who says that PTHD runs solely on the PTHD cards - that's not entirely true. Only the DSP is performed on the cards, whilst the software runs using the processor and RAM on the computer. I've recently been in two studios with older macs which run PTHD like dogs (i.e. terribly) and fail to keep up well with larger sessions.

Anyway, good luck with your PT endeavour!

Peace

[bloodyh]

Originally Posted by macaholic

If you are just starting out, and want to lean post, it's probably smartest to use what most other folks are using: Pro Tools.

A new M-Box Mini will let you learn the basics, and Pro Tools LE is an incredibly capable system, especially to learn on, and the keyboard shortcuts are mostly the same as HD. Don't try to get too far ahead of yourself with concerns over ADC etc...

$250-$300 is an incredibly inexpensive way to start in Pro Tools!!

While you are at it I suggest you start your library now:

David Yewdall's The Practical Art Of Motion Picture Sound and John Purcell's incredible book Dialoge Editing for Motion Pictures, should be in everyones collection.

I would add Jay Rose's Audio Postproduction for Film and Video... he's got this "cookbook" system at the end of each chapter where he'll tell you about common uses of what's been discussed in the chapter along with workflow and general settings... But Yewdall and Purcell definitely! And Holman's Sound for Film and TV as well