Analog mixing in film post

[jetam]

Hi!
I'm interested how mixing audio for film is (was) done with analog mixing console like Amek Media 51 because you can't automate EQs etc. Do you punch every new scene to mixtape? Or bounce processed tracks to multitrack and than mix only volumes with automation?

Thanks

[georgia]

back when you were just a gleam in mom's eye, mixers were unable to back up and punch-record in the middle of a mix, so an entire reel had to be mixed from start to finish in a single pass. Therefore between non-automated consoles and the use of mag tape based dubbers, there were limited numbers of tracks.... you can only get so many hands on a console before someone was going to screw up somewhere on a reel. mixes were straight forward. lots of premixing was done on various stems..

cheers
geo

[TVPostSound]

back when you were just a gleam in mom's eye, mixers were unable to back up and punch-record in the middle of a mix, so an entire reel had to be mixed from start to finish in a single pass.

Not exactly true.

Punching in happened all the time, just had to make sure your levels were matched in.
Hence the pec/direct switch.

[Branko]

Originally Posted by TVPostSound

Not exactly true.

Punching in happened all the time, just had to make sure your levels were matched in.
Hence the pec/direct switch.

Well, it IS true, there was a time when things were mixed without punching, because there wasn't a possibility to rewind in sync. Only when projectors gained the ability to play back in reverse, interlock systems were invented (like tri-phase westrex, or Perfectone), people started thinking about punch-ins. You could match levels only if you were able to rewind in sync.
And before that, mixing was done to an optical negative recorder, so no punching in was possible.

[TVPostSound]

The OP's keywords were "tape" and "multitrack".

[philper]

I took a tour of the Todd-A-O sound mixing facility as kid on a field trip (I grew up in Hollywood, in part). At that time they described the mixing process as being a live performance by several sets of hands. They had only recently started to mix to mag all the time, and be able to back up (at sound speed only) in sync. No one talked about punch ins, only about full reels. They showed us how they watched the reel through, figuring out the problems that still needed fixing before the mix and figuring out their level moves, then watched it again running backwards to the head while figuring out their EQ moves. Then they pushed GO and did it, in real time, no automation. Hence the famous quote from the legendary mixer Richard Portman to the filmmakers and sound editors at his mixes: "ARE YOU READY?"

As an answer to the OP's question about EQ auto, last year I sat in on a mix in the old Fantasy Mix B in Berkeley, which has what I think is the last Otari "Premiere" console in existence. This console/room mixed "Amadeus", among many others--it was built to Mark Berger's spec. I was amazed to discover that while there was VCA automation (NOT moving faders) for levels (and I think some of the sends and returns), the EQ was entirely manual and not recallable. So they inched and punched their way through the gnarly spots....(heroic).

Philip Perkins

[dr.sound]

Originally Posted by georgia

back when you were just a gleam in mom's eye, mixers were unable to back up and punch-record in the middle of a mix, so an entire reel had to be mixed from start to finish in a single pass. Therefore between non-automated consoles and the use of mag tape based dubbers, there were limited numbers of tracks.... you can only get so many hands on a console before someone was going to screw up somewhere on a reel. mixes were straight forward. lots of premixing was done on various stems..

cheers
geo

Geo,
This actually was the case when they mixed directly to optical way back.
In the late 40-50's a thing was developed to mix directly to mag
called "rock n roll". This and using the pec/direct keys.
When I learned to mix in 1980, we mixed to a single composite mono track,
no automation. In 1982 we then split out to 4 stereo pairs of Dialog, Music, Fx and Laffs/ audience or Foley. The tracks were Dolby A encoded.
In 1986 I moved to a Studio in Hollywood that had a brand new SSL 6000
that was modified to have 4 mix busses as described above. It had SSL "E" fader automation that was useless for Post. You use to have to be able to mix up to 60 tracks at a time without automation and match level, EQ, verb etc and punch in without hearing a punch. It was stressful and difficult but that was the way we did it. During that time some studios would predub their elements to mag or multitrack. SSL then came out with their VCA "G" automation (aprox 1987) that would make it bearable. The first moving fader automation I worked on was on my Otari Premier Console in 1991 that was custom built for me at Sony Pictures. It was the only automated console at Sony except for the Quad Eight console in the Carey Grant Theater that had Massenburg Moving Fader automation. In 1992 Sony and Harrison co-developed the MPC with full automation on everything, faders, eq's, panners and routing.
In 1994 I worked on an Amek Mozart with 56 fader that my mixing partner Gary Rogers and I mixed some episodes of "The X Files" with no automation at all.
It was busy, and big and took a skill that few here could do. I am glad those days are over. You guys have it SO EASY !.

I hope that gives the OP an idea of what some of us Re-Recording Mixers
did at that time.

[studjo]

I'm surprised how late the moving fader thing was introduced ...

[dr.sound]

Phillip,
I was the Re-Recording Mixer in early 1990 on a MC Hammer Movie called
"Hammer Please Don't Hurt Em, The Movie" that you did the Production Sound on.
It was mixed with my new SSL "G" automation.

[dr.sound]

Originally Posted by studjo

I'm surprised how late the moving fader thing was introduced ...

For Post Consoles in LA the first Fader automation was the Necam 96 .
It was slow and funky.A few places in the mid 80's had it but not many.

[Rick Sanchez]

Originally Posted by dr.sound

For Post Consoles in LA the first Fader automation was the Necam 96 .
It was slow and funky.A few places in the mid 80's had it but not many.

I don't think I ever saw it in post, but do remember mixing using Alison VCA automation. You'd store the mix data and updates by bouncing between 2 tracks of a multi-track machine. Each pass would generate a bit more latency in your moves. We've come a very very long way.

[studjo]

moving fader automation was introduced earlier on music consoles or is that only my impression?
and
what was the reason why Necam was useless for post?

sometimes I get the impression you post guys need sharper tools than the audio guys and I can't see the reason why

[studjo]

Originally Posted by Rick Sanchez

I don't think I ever saw it in post, but do remember mixing using Alison VCA automation. You'd store the mix data and updates by bouncing between 2 tracks of a multi-track machine. Each pass would generate a bit more latency in your moves. We've come a very very long way.

**** I totally forgot about that system ... and you had to check if your very first moves would still play if you had a big mix going ...

[minister]

Randy Thom's first job after cleaning out Ben Burtt's field cases, was to take care of the punch-cards for the automation to the console that Walter Murch was using in mid-to-late '70's to mix Apocalypse Now.

[Branko]

Otari Premier Console in 1991

Correct me if I'm wrong, but was it possible to write automation backwards on that console? I've seen one in Berlin, exactly in 1991 in a brand new studio built for TV post.

[Bill Mellow]

Wow, Necam. Haven't heard that name in a long time. Anyone remember Necam 1 with it's big 8" floppy disks!

It is surprising to some that the days of "no automation" were not that long ago. Do I miss those days? Heck no! I love the flexibility that we enjoy today. Am I glad that learned how to mix without automation? Absolutely.

The one key ingredient to mixing without automation that hasn't really been mentioned here are cue sheets. I don't even want to think on how many trees were knocked down for me to scribble all my notes on for all the mixes I've done, but they were the key to a successful mix, and more importantly the key to being able to go back and do fixes.

[Branko]

I did my first mix using automation in 1990, on a MCI JH600 console. Recording LtRt to tracks 2&3 and recording automation on 1&4 on 35mm / 4-track MWA recorder. By the end of the day VCAs would become so hot you couldn't keep your hands on the desk for a long time...

[philper]

Originally Posted by dr.sound

Phillip,
I was the Re-Recording Mixer in early 1990 on a MC Hammer Movie called
"Hammer Please Don't Hurt Em, The Movie" that you did the Production Sound on.
It was mixed with my new SSL "G" automation.

You did a good job with our tracks--Gary Dowling (boom) and I did our best but man were those extras unruly (and loud).... I see that the director (Rupert Wainwright) is still around--did you do any of his other films? Did you own the SSL? They were stupifyingly expensive a I recall. In SF (other than Skywalker) we didn't get any automation at all until the Otari "Status" consoles, and they were non-moving fader VCA types. One guy had a Harrison w/ the Allison automation , but all that kind of thing that worked fine for mixing a 3 minute pop song fell completely apart when trying to do a mix for a whole film (even a short one). We really only used the automation for tweaks etc, it was too scary to do big moves with it and we printed EQ and fx as we went. There was a HUGE argument at the first mix I worked on where I (as the sound designer) wanted to work on non-contiguous sections of a film because the music hadn't been approved in some parts, and I wanted to use level automation and punch and out of it. This made the studio owners VERY nervous (we were a star client), but eventually they relented and it all worked out (and, as these things go, became SOP after that). I didn't get to do fully automated mixes (w/ EQ and FX etc etc) until DAW ITB mixing came along. An 8 handed mix was fun though...

The field trip to Todd-A-O I mentioned would have been in 1965, I think.

Philip Perkins

[Fajita]

can we re title the thread "Jurassic Post"


It's actually a real treat to read about where all the magic comes from. I love to read this sort of stuff.

[dr.sound]

Originally Posted by philper

You did a good job with our tracks--Gary Dowling (boom) and I did our best but man were those extras unruly (and loud).... I see that the director (Rupert Wainwright) is still around--did you do any of his other films? Did you own the SSL? They were stupifyingly expensive a I recall. In SF (other than Skywalker) we didn't get any automation at all until the Otari "Status" consoles, and they were non-moving fader VCA types. One guy had a Harrison w/ the Allison automation , but all that kind of thing that worked fine for mixing a 3 minute pop song fell completely apart when trying to do a mix for a whole film (even a short one). We really only used the automation for tweaks etc, it was too scary to do big moves with it and we printed EQ and fx as we went. There was a HUGE argument at the first mix I worked on where I (as the sound designer) wanted to work on non-contiguous sections of a film because the music hadn't been approved in some parts, and I wanted to use level automation and punch and out of it. This made the studio owners VERY nervous (we were a star client), but eventually they relented and it all worked out (and, as these things go, became SOP after that). I didn't get to do fully automated mixes (w/ EQ and FX etc etc) until DAW ITB mixing came along. An 8 handed mix was fun though...

The field trip to Todd-A-O I mentioned would have been in 1965, I think.

Philip Perkins

Phillip.
I didn't own the SSL.Just worked for Modernvideofilm/ Modernsound then.
I mixed all the MCHammer Videos like "Can't Touch This" etc at the time. I used to do the Aerosmith Videos, Twisted Sister, Diamond Dave and countless others at that time along with 10 sitcoms a week. Fun stuff.
Please call me sometime .
All the Best,

[minister]

Marti, I think this must your handiwork too:

[philper]

Originally Posted by dr.sound

Phillip.
I didn't own the SSL.Just worked for Modernvideofilm/ Modernsound then.
I mixed all the MCHammer Videos like "Can't Touch This" etc at the time. I used to do the Aerosmith Videos, Twisted Sister, Diamond Dave and countless others at that time along with 10 sitcoms a week. Fun stuff.
Please call me sometime .
All the Best,

Did you do the big huge one with the video image of James Brown etc--(one of the last)? (YouTube - MC HAMMER - HERE COMES THE HAMMER (ORIGINAL CLASSIC)) I did a whole lot of Hammer's company's videos back in the day. That version of "Here Comes The Hammer" was said to be the 2nd most expensive music video in history at the time ("Thriller" was the most expensive.) The cutting didn't do justice to the sets, which were way cool, huge, 360 and all real--to scale (CG only for the video screen effects). LONG days.....

Philip Perkins

[BFSound]

Seems liek osme of you know what your talking about when it comes to mixing audio to video i just posted my question so i figures id drop a link to get some help without jacking the thread thumbsup

Mixing audio to video in post

Thanks

[dr.sound]

[QUOTE=minister;5196612]Marti, I think this must your handiwork too:

Tom,
You're killing me. I wouldn't know how to get "that" sound.

[ggegan]

As a point of interest, there were a few different early automation systems that addressed faders and switches. The ones I was familiar with from the early 80's were retrofitted Flying Faders, which used string-like belts to move the faders and were always breaking, Necam and the SSL VCA automated system which required that all the automation for the entire console had to be punched into record simultaneously. Around 1989 the Otari Premier was introduced, which was the last of the partially automated consoles that I worked on. None of these systems had automated bussing, panners, EQ or dynamics, just faders and on/off switches.

It wasn't until the mid 90's that the Neve DFC and the Harrison MPC became the first widely used fully automated consoles in the film industry. My stage at the Todd AO Bundy facility and Chris Jenkin's stage at the Todd AO Seward facility got the first two DFCs in Hollywood and Sony installed the first MPCs.

To say that being on that bleeding edge was traumatic is an understatement. Not only were the consoles notoriously unstable, resulting in entire days of downtime (even when they worked it was rare that we didn't have to credit the client an hour or two at the end of the day), but they were designed without a solid understanding of film mixing conventions. We had to develop the methodology on the job while trying to convince the client that we actually knew what we were doing, when it was obvious we didn't have a clue. Believe it or not, in the beginning the new technology actually resulted in worse mixes that took longer to do. Eventually everything worked out great, but it was extremely painful getting to that point.

If you have ever witnessed the frustration of a mixer who is used to working on traditional consoles like the DFC, MPC or Euphonix trying to mix on an ICON for the first time, consider that that is childs play compared to what we all went through making the leap from basic fader automation to the first fully automated consoles. There were several A list mixers who had trouble just dealing with fader automation.

[philper]

Originally Posted by ggegan

If you have ever witnessed the frustration of a mixer who is used to working on traditional consoles like the DFC, MPC or Euphonix trying to mix on an ICON for the first time, consider that that is childs play compared to what we all went through making the leap from basic fader automation to the first fully automated consoles. There were several A list mixers who had trouble just dealing with fader automation.

Gary Rydstrom alluded to this situation being part of the inspiration for "Lifted".

Philip Perkins

[Kuba_Pietrzak]

I learned mixing on boards, which did not have any automation systems. There were 4 3-track 35mm Magnatech players and 1 recorder. Everything was mixed to mono. Only 1 reverb was avaliable (Klark-Technik). So Pec/Dir switch (which was called "before tape" and "after tape" here) was the best friend to check, if the punch was audiable or not.

The process which was done at that time should not be called art-of-mixing from my point of view. It was rather the art-of-somehow-putting-everything-together.

This was happening in early '90s in my home country.


The next step was Soundcraft DC2000 which had flying faders and wrote automation to incoming time-code. You could record automation of those faders' movements and "mute" switches. The internal "computer" was really buggy. Service floppy and "call for service" messages...

As you may remember, somewhere in the 90s Yamaha 02r came out, which had absolutely terrible sound, but you could automate almost everything and it was recallable! Not only faders or on/offs, but also Eqs, dynamics, pannings... It also locked to incoming time code. There were several 02r setups here in Warsaw along with Spectral systems...
...but it was digital

regards,
Kuba

[seriousfun]

Originally Posted by ggegan

As a point of interest, there were a few different early automation systems that addressed faders and switches. The ones I was familiar with from the early 80's were retrofitted Flying Faders, which used string-like belts to move the faders and were always breaking, Necam and the SSL VCA automated system which required that all the automation for the entire console had to be punched into record simultaneously. Around 1989 the Otari Premier was introduced, which was the last of the partially automated consoles that I worked on. None of these systems had automated bussing, panners, EQ or dynamics, just faders and on/off switches....

Originally Posted by Kuba_Pietrzak

.... Soundcraft DC2000 which had flying faders and wrote automation to incoming time-code. You could record automation of those faders' movements and "mute" switches. The internal "computer" was really buggy. Service floppy and "call for service" messages...

...

The first Flying Faders systems were introduced in 1989. previous moving fader automation systems were buggy and incomplete, but Flying Faders just worked and was widely adopted (and copied) for music and post work.

Little post work is done on Flying Faders-equipped consoles these days, with Pro Tools/ICON/etc. being the commonly used system (Flying Faders II does work well with Pro Tools now using the HUI protocol), but a few facilities like Manhattan Center soldier on. I doubt that the Soundcraft had Flying Faders.

[Kuba_Pietrzak]

Originally Posted by seriousfun

I doubt that the Soundcraft had Flying Faders.

I meant "motorized" faders.


YouTube - Soundcraft DC2000 Flying faders

Kuba

[ggegan]

Originally Posted by seriousfun

The first Flying Faders systems were introduced in 1989. previous moving fader automation systems were buggy and incomplete, but Flying Faders just worked and was widely adopted (and copied) for music and post work.

You are correct. Sorry for the faulty memory. The first motorized faders I worked on were actually GML (which had the breaking strings), not Flying Faders which came out a little later and were more reliable. There were VCA automation consoles like the Quad 8 Coronado that I first saw around 1983 or so, but no one I knew bothered using it much. Trying to watch blinking lights to match in and out took too much of the mixer's attention away from the screen.