Analog mixing in film post

[dr.sound]

Originally Posted by ggegan

There were VCA automation consoles like the Quad 8 Coronado that I first saw around 1983 or so, but no one I knew bothered using it much. Trying to watch blinking lights to match in and out took too much of the mixer's attention away from the screen.

My first console in 1980 was a Quad 8 Coronado with "CompUMix" VCA automation.It didn't work worth a damn. We couldn't use it.

[philper]

Originally Posted by dr.sound

My first console in 1980 was a Quad 8 Coronado with "CompUMix" VCA automation.It didn't work worth a damn. We couldn't use it.

I'd be curious to know how many pop music mixers used those early automation schemes. They didn't work all that well for long-form film mixes, but maybe for short songs....(but why bother?). At the other end of the scale from Dr. Sound's Quad-Eight Coronado, I tried to do a mix w/ JL Cooper Fadermasters, the ones that used that same sort of "match the LED" scheme. 2 hours later--back doing a manual mix (via punching through the film) and the Fadermasters were on their way back to the dealer..... (On a PT 3 rig.)

Philip Perkins

[Sonsey@mac.com]

Originally Posted by philper

I'd be curious to know how many pop music mixers used those early automation schemes. They didn't work all that well for long-form film mixes, but maybe for short songs....(but why bother?).
Philip Perkins

A studio that I assisted at in the late 80's/early 90's (music, not post) had a similar VCA system in place... As I recall it was rarely used because it was just too much damn trouble, and never seemed to recall correctly. It really did become a "why bother" thing. It was easier to coral four or five extra hands for a mix, then to try and get the damn thing going.

[Jfriah]

MMmmmmm.... Quad Eiiiiiiight...


Ahhh; punch-ins... ahhhhhhhh; automation.
I was just explaining to some film students last week how the times have been changing not all that long ago...

I should mix this current student film in single passes just to show them what it's like.

Jeff

[PostKID]

I have been following this post for a few days and one thing keeps coming to mind...It kinda saddens me that my career pretty much started on an ICON and will most likely end on an ICON.
Im sure it must have been a pain the the a$$ back in the day, but what an amazing time to be a mixer. I constantly undo an edit, take another pass on a track because I wasn't happy with my fader move and tweek my plug-ins till the final day. But to commit to a move or a sound, there is something to be said about that...just needed to get that out.

[apple-q]

Originally Posted by PostKID

I have been following this post for a few days and one thing keeps coming to mind...It kinda saddens me that my career pretty much started on an ICON and will most likely end on an ICON.
Im sure it must have been a pain the the a$$ back in the day, but what an amazing time to be a mixer. I constantly undo an edit, take another pass on a track because I wasn't happy with my fader move and tweek my plug-ins till the final day. But to commit to a move or a sound, there is something to be said about that...just needed to get that out.

I guess if you had seen the undo cue on a Harrisson and it´s features you would not be posting this ;-)
Check it out and be amazed what PT-automation is still lacking. (Which is the main reason why many mixers that grew up on MPCs get so frustrated on Icons.)

[philper]

Originally Posted by PostKID

I have been following this post for a few days and one thing keeps coming to mind...It kinda saddens me that my career pretty much started on an ICON and will most likely end on an ICON.
Im sure it must have been a pain the the a$$ back in the day, but what an amazing time to be a mixer. I constantly undo an edit, take another pass on a track because I wasn't happy with my fader move and tweek my plug-ins till the final day. But to commit to a move or a sound, there is something to be said about that...just needed to get that out.

Ahh don't feel too sorry for yourself: it was a pain in the ass. A lot of what passed for specific skills with that gear were just wacky work-arounds to get through the day. The hard part was managing all those unreliable and poorly functioning pieces of VERY expensive gear (ESPECIALLY the video side of the mix) while still "keeping your head in the show". That could be tough.

Philip Perkins

[studjo]

Originally Posted by apple-q

I guess if you had seen the undo cue on a Harrisson and it´s features you would not be posting this ;-)
Check it out and be amazed what PT-automation is still lacking. (Which is the main reason why many mixers that grew up on MPCs get so frustrated on Icons.)

hey apple-q tell me more about that Cue-feature on the Harrison. I guess you're not talking about the undo list. Did you guys work with the Cue-list which was synced to the timecode?

Jo

[apple-q]

Originally Posted by studjo

hey apple-q tell me more about that Cue-feature on the Harrison. I guess you're not talking about the undo list. Did you guys work with the Cue-list which was synced to the timecode?

Jo

My comment was aimed to your comment on being able to undo in PT. On an MPC you have list of your last passes on screen that cycles your last passes. So if you want to go back 3 passes you just select that one and your next pass coming up will be based on that one. Made a good one but director says try another but keep that one? You don´t have to "save as" you simply lock that pass in your cue and go for another one. After 2 hours of experimantation deirector says: forget it. lets go back to the one 2 hours ago? Just drag the locked pass to the top and you are back. No need to open a saved session.
Just a side-note: Imagine during those 2 hours you made about 20 edit-changes tweaking ADR-clips or what ever in ProTools! What then if you mixed in PT? Send director home and then spend an hour importing tracks combining the old mix version with the new edits?
Not necessary when mixing outside the box.

Anyway... just a few examples to illustrate...

There´s always two sides of a coin (or more ;-) )

Sidenote: conforming a mix is also possible on an MPC, Euphonix. Just load a changelist from conformalizer (euphonix) or punch in the edits into your MPC.

[studjo]

ups did I says something about undo - don't think so - I work every day with a Harrison Series 12 so I should know that you can undo whatever you want
but you know as a music mixer there's so much stuff in the Harrison I never use (for example the Cue list - snapshops being something else that comes to mind)
anyway thanks man

[apple-q]

Originally Posted by studjo

ups did I says something about undo - don't think so - I work every day with a Harrison Series 12 so I should know that you can undo whatever you want
but you know as a music mixer there's so much stuff in the Harrison I never use (for example the Cue list - snapshops being something else that comes to mind)
anyway thanks man

hm. sorry. maybe a missuderstanding then. never mind. thumbsup

[eoats]

... in the old Fantasy Mix B in Berkeley, which has what I think is the last Otari "Premiere" console in existence. This console/room mixed "Amadeus", among many others--it was built to Mark Berger's spec. I was amazed to discover that while there was VCA automation (NOT moving faders) for levels (and I think some of the sends and returns), the EQ was entirely manual and not recallable. So they inched and punched their way through the gnarly spots....(heroic).

Philip Perkins[/QUOTE]

I mixed with Mark Berger in both SZFC mix stages. We called them 3 & 2 back then as the down stairs 'Music' studios were Letters; A, B, C & D.
3 (third floor) is where "Amadeus, "Right Stuff", "Never Cry Wolf" & so on were mixed on a Harrison PP-1 with VCAs (40 faders seemed like a lot back then. The First Otari was installed in 2 (second floor) where I came onto the scene, "Mortal Thoughts" was the first show Mark & I did in there (Leslie Shatz mixed something; "...Swords" in 2 before that). Anyway, the Otari's had Disk Mix 3 Moving fader Automation which was very nice for the late 80s. No send levels were automated but the in/out switches for Filters, EQ, insert, 4 sends & Mute were. Later a second Premiere replaced the Harrison on 3 and that's what they had for "The English Patient" & the Dialog & Music of "K-19" (the FX went through a Euphonics brought in for that show).

[philper]

Originally Posted by eoats

... in the old Fantasy Mix B in Berkeley, which has what I think is the last Otari "Premiere" console in existence. This console/room mixed "Amadeus", among many others--it was built to Mark Berger's spec. I was amazed to discover that while there was VCA automation (NOT moving faders) for levels (and I think some of the sends and returns), the EQ was entirely manual and not recallable. So they inched and punched their way through the gnarly spots....(heroic).

I mixed with Mark Berger in both SZFC mix stages. We called them 3 & 2 back then as the down stairs 'Music' studios were Letters; A, B, C & D.
3 (third floor) is where "Amadeus, "Right Stuff", "Never Cry Wolf" & so on were mixed on a Harrison PP-1 with VCAs (40 faders seemed like a lot back then. The First Otari was installed in 2 (second floor) where I came onto the scene, "Mortal Thoughts" was the first show Mark & I did in there (Leslie Shatz mixed something; "...Swords" in 2 before that). Anyway, the Otari's had Disk Mix 3 Moving fader Automation which was very nice for the late 80s. No send levels were automated but the in/out switches for Filters, EQ, insert, 4 sends & Mute were. Later a second Premiere replaced the Harrison on 3 and that's what they had for "The English Patient" & the Dialog & Music of "K-19" (the FX went through a Euphonics brought in for that show).

The Otari is still there in "B" or "3" (I've heard it called both in recent years) if you want to visit! Sounds good, but we ended up bringing in Jim LeBrecht's C24 anyhow--it was weird to see such a high end console used a table.....but we had a whole lotta EQ and plug etc automation going on! When I asked why we weren't using the Otari (and its automation) there were some vague "ums" etc and some staring at shoes--guess I wasn't supposed to ask... In any case that Otari was a tremendously high-end board in its day--the rest of us had to make do with much funkier setups to have any auto at all until DAWs came along.

Philip Perkins

[Steven1145]

I wasn't yet working in the eighties, but in 96 I mixed an Italian movie by Francesco Rosi at Cinecitta. We were in a wonderfully big THX approved mix room, in the middle of which sat a 70's Studer desk with scary VCA automation that (sometimes) saved to 5" floppies... arg... I was sooooooooooo jealous of the crew in the other mix room who were using a brand new SSL with moving faders! But our director's ego demanded the bigger stage

And for that movie I had bought a 02R on which I had done a lot of rough mixes for promo reels and such. It was weird stepping going from the 02R to the Studer.

One day, when the senior Cinecitta mixer was ill, Rosi asked me to keep on mixing on my own. Stupid young man as I was, I tried mixing a few scenes using the automation and printing after (we had premixed DIA, FX and MUSIC already). But... I was recording the mix to one of my Akai DR8 recorders, and there was obviously a very strange buffer problem with the MOD (magneto optical disks), and on playback the mix would stray out of sync... I must have gone back to the head of the reel at least 10 times to check the sync, until I realised what was happening.
From then on I only recorded the mix in one or two minute passes. Live and learn...

[eoats]

Got all misty eyed & found this picture of the old 3rd Floor at SZFC, from an old brochure. This is the board that's gone now. It's older sister is still kicking on the 2nd Floor Studio.

[dr.sound]

Originally Posted by eoats

Got all misty eyed & found this picture of the old 3rd Floor at SZFC, from an old brochure. This is the board that's gone now. It's older sister is still kicking on the 2nd Floor Studio.

I had the exact same console (Otari Premiere) at Sony Pictures when I was there. It was a 60 input: Dialog and Music on 24 faders and FX and Foley on 36 faders.
GREAT console, excellent fader automation. The monitor matrix was outstanding .It also had predub returns and panners (non automated).
It was fast and good sounding and very reliable.

[eoats]

Yes, nice boards. Originally there was a Harrison PP-1 in that room, which was nicely thought out, but the CPU could never seem to quite keep up with the mix. The Premiere was sweet. (When I heard it sold for scrap at $2500 I was sick.)

[philper]

Originally Posted by eoats

Yes, nice boards. Originally there was a Harrison PP-1 in that room, which was nicely thought out, but the CPU could never seem to quite keep up with the mix. The Premiere was sweet. (When I heard it sold for scrap at $2500 I was sick.)

$2500? Say it ain't so... Dan Alexander has Premiere channel strips for $49 each...probably the SZ board? Like a fine piano being cut up for firewood.

This kind of thing has become a source of real depression for me lately--we used to mix on boards like this (when "we" were lucky), now I am asked to record on still cameras that record video and audio; (ie Canon 5D) which are manifestly lower-fi than recording gear I was using 20 years ago (in the field). I'm told that difference in quality is not relevant anymore, because "it's for the web".

Philip Perkins

[eoats]

Sadly, it was Mr Alexander that I heard was the buyer.


Dan Alexander Audio

I'm afraid to ask Jim Austin if it's true, he had a lot to do with the design of the Premiere. & it's installation.