Radio mix levels - how loud is too loud? How soft too soft?

[elambo]

I've searched, talked to many people, made some calls, but there doesn't seem to be much definition for the radio station's expectations in regard to maximum level dbFS.

I've seen reports from engineers ranging from -10 to -0.1 dbFS and everywhere in between.

It seems that there may be no "technical" maximum dictated by the stations - I've accepted that - but is there an argument for or against -10? Is there an argument for or against -0.1? Would one sound better on the air?

This is one of those areas, just like audio for TV, where the engineers who load audio just prior to broadcast aren't talking, as though it's an industry secret.

[dysenterygary]

according to the current trends the louder the better. -10 seems a little low to me, it definitely would sound inferior to a louder release regardless of how good it actually is. But most stations use limiters and compressors and lots of other things and by the time it reaches the output tower its all the same level. At least thats how it was at the station I worked at a while ago.

[pbell]

I have no idea. I send my spots at -0.1 or something close to that. I've tried to get answers but there are none. I don't think it's because it is a well guarded secret, they just don't know. I slam them with a limiter (massey is my favorite) and nothing has been sent back to me. Things sound good on the radio, and by good I mean they rival anything done by anyone else production wise.

Wish it wasn't this way but let's face it, it's radio and it is very quickly becoming a dead medium for advertising as far as I can tell.

[audiobob]

Anywhere from -01 to -02, whatever you use for CD level. Radio levels is not a guarded secret or anything like that. They are very loose on levels because either the level can be brought up or down when inserting the spot in the computer or if it's low the massive amount of processing they use will bring it up and slam the crap out of it anyway. It's really embarrassing how radio sounds these days. You want to talk about loudness wars. Glad I'm done and dusted working in that medium.

[pbell]

Originally Posted by thecontinental

It's really embarrassing how radio sounds these days. You want to talk about loudness wars.

I agree with you. I'm almost ready to give up trying to make spots sound good, as soon as they go to radio they get basterdized to hell. One local station here distorts everything - DJS, Music, ADs, It's pathetic. Recently I discovered that a film company I do work for "normalizes" my mixes I do for commercial spots after I (tastefully) hit it with a limiter.

Sorry for the hijack and rant, anyway...

[nathand]

In my experience it doesn't matter what I limit at, it all sounds the same on air. I think the key is whatever ceiling you work into, if it's for radio, make sure to limit the dynamic range.

[ripple_fx1]

-0.1 is fine. You could throw a cassette tape at a station from your moving vehicle and they'd air it. The amount of processing a file gets subjected to from ingest to transmitter is grotesque. Orban put out a paper a while back that explains the signal flow in detail, with emphasis on what happens to flattop waveforms through the chain. -12dbfs=OVU & 192kbps joint stereo is a pretty common delivery format. Record any station you like into your daw and play it back against actual VU meters. Yeah. How about that....So there's your dynamic range - you can do it, or the station chain can do it for you. Oh, BTW - there's about 15db of HF pre-emphasis added in the station to transmitter link, so don't be afraid to brighten it up a bit.

[asap audio]

I've been in radio for 30 years - yep, spliced a lot of tape.

Radio station production directors will adjust the volume of your file for the parameters of their digital playback system. We peak ours at 0 dbu.
So, as long as you don't digitally clip your commercial, we'll adjust the final
level on our end.

No decent station is just going to rip it in to their system without checking/adjusting levels.

My experience is that with today's radio processing, the less you compress and hard limit, the better and louder your spot will sound, because were going to crush it.....again.

[pbell]

Originally Posted by asap audio

I've been in radio for 30 years - yep, spliced a lot of tape.

Radio station production directors will adjust the volume of your file for the parameters of their digital playback system. We peak ours at 0 dbu.
So, as long as you don't digitally clip your commercial, we'll adjust the final
level on our end.

No decent station is just going to rip it in to their system without checking/adjusting levels.

My experience is that with today's radio processing, the less you compress and hard limit, the better and louder your spot will sound, because were going to crush it.....again.

Thanks for that info, good to know!

[JonesH]

In Sweden at least, broadcast levels are set at a maximum of +11,5 dBu, equaling 75 kHz deviation from the carrier wave for FM broadcast. Maximum peaks are supposed to stay at +9 dBu, so when I do programming I limit to 9 dBFS (since most D/A:s are set for 0dBFS=+18dBu).

[peter_martin]

Originally Posted by asap audio

I've been in radio for 30 years - yep, spliced a lot of tape.

Radio station production directors will adjust the volume of your file for the parameters of their digital playback system. We peak ours at 0 dbu.
So, as long as you don't digitally clip your commercial, we'll adjust the final
level on our end.

No decent station is just going to rip it in to their system without checking/adjusting levels.

My experience is that with today's radio processing, the less you compress and hard limit, the better and louder your spot will sound, because were going to crush it.....again.

Listen to this guy to the poster above.

You want to add impact on the radio, compress/limit tastefully, and not 'master' it.
You'll sound 1000x better for it.

Also running an 'un-mastered' mix that is good quality, professional, that has dynamics and proper balance will sound better than the same with a ton of the so called "mastering" IE hypersh*t limiting they have today.

Something to think about.

[pbell]

It's odd, over the past three years of doing radio spots I started off by doing some light limiting and eq on the master and in the last year and half doing a substantial amount of "mastering" (mostly multiband compression and excessive limiting).

I have found that my spots that I have limited hard do sound better on the local stations here, especially in comparison to some of the older ones I did (some are still in rotation 3 years later).

I wish there was a better way to compare how the spots sound when broadcast, hate using every client as a guinea pig. Mind you, most of the time my clients can't tell between a mix I've hit hard with a limiter and one I haven't.

[asap audio]

Nothing wrong with some good tasteful limiting, but be careful with compression.
Some US broadcast stations do 25db of compression!!!

EQ is important. High Pass everything 30hz and below.
Do a little 2db dip from 200-400hz. And a nice +2db shelf from 2k to 12k.
The voice-over will pop.

[Dee$]

I can definitely tell the difference on limiting from station to station--some slam it up and squish so hard I can barely understand it anymore.

I normally do it to -0.3 for Radio and -14 for TV, but the guys with the experience mean it when they say the radio station is going to adjust however they want in the end.

[pbell]

Thanks ASAP, I will certainly be keeping those in mind. I've usually done a High Pass at around 20-30Hz. On my master my limiting never hits -25, that's insane!