How do you deal with changes in the film material?

[Brian Cares]

I am doing a lot of time critical post atm.
One thing that bothers me is that i am the last piece in the chain.
The film editors will work on changes until theres just a couple of hours
for audio post left. This aint good for the quality of my work.

I am thinking about ways to integrate last minute changes into my
original PT session. Until now i always had to wait for the final cut approval to really start work.

But i would like to insert just the parts that have changed without fvcking up my sync.

Any ideas on this topic would be greatly appreciated.

[pbell]

Invest in a bottle of Grey Goose, a nice Vermouth and a shaker.

This is the story of my life and I've just learnt to deal with it which totally sucks. A few producers/directors I know consider it to be incredibly unprofessional for change a locked picture but this is life I guess.

It is possible to get a Change sheet made in Final Cut so you know what changes were made, though I've never worked with one myself (editors looked at me funny and had no CLUE what I was talking about).

Good Luck

[Jfriah]

Damn, Paul. You beat me to it!

Every good edit suite/mixing room should have a drawer for "Mommy's Little Helper"

Or whatever floats yer boat. Perhaps, including a motivational self-help book or three as well as "1001 Ways to Relax" or the Tao.

I've stopped using the term "locked picture", because when people say it recently (the last year and a half) it usually just means "something we're sending you to work with."

Someone actually used "soft lock."

There really is no such thing until it is broadcast/displayed in the end and that's just something we roll with. Respectful clients will ensure that proper TIME is allowed for changes to be made in both video AND audio side of things.

What can sometimes work? Little clauses in your contract about changes and/or fixes costing the production more.

I'm just sayin'...

I have asked many times for a change list. I have never even seen what they look like. But I keep asking.

Of cours, there are software pieces such as Titan and Virtual Katy but in the end... changes come, changes throw things for a loop, especially in the final mix where you have multiple tracks and automation to worry about cutting and pasting. If you can go from stems at that point, great, but doubtful.

Hang in there.

Jeff

[Kuba_Pietrzak]

This is about, where the imagination (or common knowledge) of our job meets real life...

It is not what we do (I love my job), but circumstances in which the job is done. And sometimes it can be a wonderful experience, where lots of creativity is put in, but more often lots of blood and tears... Locked picture, "minor changes", unexpected additional tasks (within the contracted money) like spots and trailers, perhaps "little" making-of, not to mention m&e...

"welcome to the real world"

regards,
Kuba

[josh broome]

If I were you I wouldn't wait for "final approval" to get started, get as much done as possible and when the changes come, just roll with it. Do a save as, import the new OMF, or group all your tracks and make the cuts (whatever scenario is appropriate). Flexibility is a desirable trait, and although it may be frustrating to deal with last minute changes, it will inevitably happen. Don't worry too much about screwing up your sync, if you are methodical and deliberate you'll be fine. If you work from an EDL (edit decision list) on protools use the "enter start/end" hot key, it's "/ " on the numerical keypad. Just do a new save as every time they make a change, because they may want to return to a previous version.

[rhumphries]

Ha! I was up all last night hand (ear) conforming a show that I delivered last week. Unfortunately the act lengths were not to spec, so they had to go in and rearrange the acts to get it to spec.

In my neck of the woods, change notes are a mythical creature. I'd be happy with proper EDLs.

My irritation of the day is that FCP doesn't include source timecode in OMFs. That would have saved me about 3 hours last night.


But back to the original question. You do know about Titan, Conformalizer and Kirtual Katy right?

-R

[eastwestaudio]

How do I deal with it? Make sure you put in your contract that each conform costs "X" amount of dollars extra. That way conforms won't seem quite as much of a pain in the ass!

If you're not using an auto conform software: I use region groups a lot to move things around.

-greg-

[philper]

My only counter to this "rolling lock" scenario (ie, it isn't really ever locked until they lose interest in it and move on to something else: broadcast, premiere, festival or DVD be damned) is to insist on starting my work as early as possible. The gamble is that by the time they export to me they have really done most of the editing, and will be doing a lot of little adds, tweaks, frame fiddling etc etc. In order to have time to do those changes at the last minute I need to get the "heavy lifting" out of the way ASAP, so I harangue the editors to start exporting me what they have as soon as the are close to completion, even if I'm just getting chunks of the film or single reels etc. I can always paste the chunks together later--I'll be doing that to conform their tweaks anyhow. When the changes come there is always a choice to be made between using a conform app or just having at manually--often the latter is more direct and faster. I know starting early seems a bit counter-intuitive, but it seems to work better for me than waiting for the Really Locked Picture, which never arrives.....

Philip Perkins

[charles maynes]

I dont know whether to laugh or cry about this thread....

If you can, get it in writing that changes are going to be overages. Otherwise, welcome to the world of Audio Post Production...

[postprosound]

I find that if I'm not given change notes, or if they are terrible, or handwritten. (we work a lot with Pix departments that use Lightworks) i find the easiest way to deal with it is put both old and new video tracks in, and go cut by cut on the new one, comparing it to the old one. When you find a cut, switch to the old video, compare, conform, repeat. Obviously, grid mode is your friend here.

It is completely sad that this kind of stuff is not taught or even expected of picture assistants anymore. Though there are many who are very professional, and very, very capable, why is it that we, as sound people, have to teach them what change lists, or even 2 pops are? This is a huge gripe of mine. When you get out of school, an editor will almost always work as an intern or apprentice, then assistant. Giving change notes, dealing with deliverables, etc is what you are going to be expected to do. Why isn't this type of stuff being drilled into film students? I know it's not glamorous, but it's how you work your way up!!!! This would be like us not knowing what timecode is, or gong to a mix, and not having any idea about outputs or sync. Really, one must know the CRAFT of this job just as much as the ART.

[Jfriah]

Yeah, sadly I'd have to say: this is reality, try to charge for it going forward to a degree (and, as always it is the dangerous slope of 'scaring people away to the next post house')

Long story short: if you start work 'early', be prepared for changes. Find a work methodology that works (region grouping is great, for instance) and...the more you do it, the faster/more efficient you become and it won't seem SO much a PITA going forward.

Doesn't mean you will like it any better.

Jeff

[charles maynes]

damn I havent done a lightworks show in forever... I thought those systems were all gone...

The one great feature they had was NOT having a change note feature, which required a picture assistant to actual do a REAL change note.... (that tended to actually be accurate!)

[postprosound]

Originally Posted by charles maynes

damn I havent done a lightworks show in forever... I thought those systems were all gone...

The one great feature they had was NOT having a change note feature, which required a picture assistant to actual do a REAL change note.... (that tended to actually be accurate!)

Ya, i wish they were. But, Thelma likes it, so we deal. Both of her assistants, whom i can not speak highly enough of, coined it as 'Lightworks is great, it just doesn't play well with others.'

Real change notes are a beautiful thing, though i have gotten used to the avid ones. the only i have issues with the handwritten ones is they are so susceptible to typos when the overworked assistant is doing them at 2 am.

[maggot]

surely you can get a CMX or similar EDL out of lightworks?
conformalizer can make things so much easier.
send me example EDLs if you find it doersn't work

[pbell]

Originally Posted by charles maynes

I dont know whether to laugh or cry about this thread....

If you can, get it in writing that changes are going to be overages. Otherwise, welcome to the world of Audio Post Production...

We charge by the hour, so if people want to make changes they are more than welcome to do so, it just means more money for me. :) Having said that it is still frustrating as hell.

[Enos]

When asking for change notes I have got all kinds of things in return, from small scraps of notebook with handwritten hieroglyphics on it to decent lists of specific, tiemcoded changes with frame accurate descriptions of cuts and additions made.

Though I haven't been using this yet, I understand programs like Virtual Katy or Maggot Software's Conformalizer can simply compare two EDL's and cut it all up for you. It even allows you to load up both quicktimes and compare them within the software. I'm getting that with my next paycheck!

[charles maynes]

this is a good value as well-

Conformer!

[bizzle]

Conformer! Haven't tried that one yet, thanks for pointing it out Mr. Maynes..

I've been using Conformalizer for a couple years with terrific success, the current version is very tight. But you have to make sure that when you get your Quicktime and OMF's that they give you a picture EDL too, don't wait till later to ask for it. There are other threads on this topic too, so you might want to do a search.

The best advice I can think of is: Watch out for negative and toxic thoughts. Yeah, it sucks to redo your hard work and you have to be compensated (this must be worked out before you start the project). But the filmmakers have to make this movie as good as it can be, and that will ultimately be good for you too. They will likely never know how much trouble they have put you through, does that matter?

Enjoy it!

&e

[charles maynes]

Really great comments Andy- and it is really hard to avoid bitterness- which will never ever help the show, or your career.

[apple-q]

Originally Posted by bizzle

The best advice I can think of is: Watch out for negative and toxic thoughts. Y
&e

I must say since re-cuts have become such a normal thing I have no emotions anymore when this happens. I open conformalizer do the re-cut and fix the transitions.

Yes it´s work and yes it has to be payed but it´s part of the job. In the end it´s not "my film" and ulimately not "my" work. It´s the work or collaboration that it takes to make the film (ideally) a better one than the previous version.

We aren´t working in a car workshop. Creative work needs some changes. It´s part of the process and I´m glad that there are tools like conformalizer that enable huge re-cuts in relatively short time. Years ago it was simply a PITA but at least Conformalizer does the tedious part automatically. I "negotiate" a workflow with the assistant editor at the beginning of a production to make sure the EDL-settings are correct and the VFX-naming is consistent (unike VK conformalizer does VFX-tracking!!!). Once setup there are little to no issues.

I´m always happy to receive picture re-cuts that improve the film.

If you waste your energy with bitterness and frustration over a re-cut you should think about a different job because there´s one thing for sure: "locked picture" is something that does not exist in reality anymore. I´ve recut films that were already out on the shelves of the DVD store.

[Jfriah]

I'll open the can of worms called :

Bittnerness vs. trying to "assist people in understanding" why things become difficult and take time away from what the post crew should be doing: making the project SOUND the best it can, rather than dealing with administrative changes and fixes that keep happening and keep happening and...

I'm a believer in learning something new every day and that certainly should apply to everyone involved... there are just certain 'simple' things that make life so much easier (and cost the client less) and allow us to just keep doing what they are paying us for, making their show sound the best it can with the money and time allotted.


Jeff

[charles maynes]

I hate to say it, but the job has way less to do with making it sound awesome, and more with making those who hire you appear brilliant, insightful and filled with the mind of Orson Welles and Stephen Spielberg- it is all about making them feel like the royalty they think they are.

[petessound@hotm]

it always seems to be a pain, the problem i have with some of the automatic conform programs is that they dont handle VFX changes very well.

for example if the background changes on a green screen shot then the conform program sees this as a 'new shot' as it technically is new, different media. when infact all the audio/sync etc should stay the same. the usual result is that the conform program wipes out all your still very relevant audio

i just end up bringing in the guide audio from the new and old QT files flipping the phase on one so that you have total cancellation. then just playing it through untill you hear audio, then you know the cut has changed.

then group all your audio with the new guide, move untill you get cancelation again and repeat

still time consuming tho....

[maggot]

Originally Posted by petessound@hotm

the problem i have with some of the automatic conform programs is that they dont handle VFX changes very well.

http://www.maggot.co.nz/software/dem...pareVFX_SM.mov

I agree with Charles et al:
today, recuts are a filmmakers right. we have technical solutions and we are all capable of negotiating a deal which takes recuts into consideration.
that said, I think it is important that an understanding of the consequences make it's way into the culture in the same way the right-to-recut has.
that last bit is gonna be our responsibility I guess.

[charles maynes]

man, it sounds like we use the same technique.....

VFX shots are always hard....

[Jfriah]

Originally Posted by charles maynes

I hate to say it, but the job has way less to do with making it sound awesome, and more with making those who hire you appear brilliant, insightful and filled with the mind of Orson Welles and Stephen Spielberg- it is all about making them feel like the royalty they think they are.

Charles, that's brilliant in and of itself. Apparently I didn't proofread my posting; should have put "making APPEAR to sound the best it can".

Nice one; and once again Randy Thom's "quote" comes back:
We in post sound are illusionists, not magicians.

I might just start quoting you now, Charles, with that one!


p.s. I never said filmmakers don't have the right to recut on unlock--I'm just saying there are ways of doing things that make it easier on all involved. And a lot of that stems from a good assistant.

[ErikG]

...just saying there are ways of doing things that make it easier on all involved. And a lot of that stems from a good assistant.

Well to me of the things that makes things go well does not really come from a good assistant,although they definetly never hurt to have around.
A good workflow comes from a good postproduction plan, and a good postproduction supervisor who knows how to communicate and revise that plan in the best possible way when things go to the shitters.


Also having a workflow that makes fixing stuff after the recut's is also very useful. For really crazy projects a good idea is to not even bother to fade in/out ambiences, just cut em at the scene change. Avoid automation in as best as you can, and if not avoiding it, write it with a fader rather than a mouse since recutting almost always mess up automation (this goes against with how I prefer to work in editorial though).

[petessound@hotm]

http://www.maggot.co.nz/software/dem...pareVFX_SM.mov

thanks, will check it out

[Brian Cares]

Hey folks. Thanks for your replies and sorry for getting back so late.
I´ve been on location shoots a alot..

I think the conform software was what i was looking for.
So thanks for the heads up. I am still not sure about how these work. Am i right to assume that they will replace and exchange parts that have changed with the help of change logs written in FCP?


At the moment i am dealing with changes the way that i either get only the changes with 60 sec original audio before and after the edit, fix that and make sure the transition is smooth and then give back just the edit and let the editor implement the changes. Or the editor will use my audio for parts that have not changed and leave the changed parts as is so i do not have to rework everything. Fortunately the communication between the departments is pretty good...


The idea to ask this question came up when i was on standby for a full 24 hrs mostly surfing the internetz and sleeping on the editing rooms couch and then had 2 1/2 hrs to finish a pretty complex and messed up session.

So i thought there must be a way to work parallel to the editors.
The conform software solutions seem to get me in this direction.
I will investigate further.


edit: Oh i see Conformalizer and Conformer are Mac only. Any hints on a Windows version?