The evolution of movie quality vs. music (Avatar)

[DP40oz]

So I saw Avatar in 3D last night and was completely blown away. The visual quality of this movie, the whole 3D world and just the unbelievable clarity were in insane. I guess the whole experience couldnt help but make me think why isnt music progressing like this. Although I do believe unlike most that despite the loundness wars music has become "bigger" and more "larger then life" sounding then it used to be but it seems it has really been the same as far as audio quality and any sort of ground breaking production for the last 15 years. Also the fact that mp3 is the new major format makes me feel that music is going in the opposite direction. Just curious about any thoughts you guys may have about this.

[tysonviolin]

People don't pay $13 to hear a piece of music once, unless it is live. Music is still live and acting has moved on to movies which isn't. That is the difference. Also, Avatar is super mainstream. It is a very high budget film. Isn't this approach what killed the record industry? Avatar was a great experience, but I saw other films this year that I will see again before I watch Avatar on my TV at home.

[DP40oz]

Originally Posted by tysonviolin

People don't pay $13 to hear a piece of music once, unless it is live. Music is still live and acting has moved on to movies which isn't. That is the difference. Also, Avatar is super mainstream. It is a very high budget film. Isn't this approach what killed the record industry? Avatar was a great experience, but I saw other films this year that I will see again before I watch Avatar on my TV at home.

Agreed but im talking more from a strictly production stand point not a "how good the movie was" thing.

[PRobb]

I would say music production values are going downhill. The loss of musicians playing instruments in groups, and the general level of professionalism that approach requires, is the main culprit.

[Infernal Device]

Music today is over saturated with "clarity". Avatar is a good example of media these days. Everyone who talks about the movie talks about the visual effects and clarity. Nobody mentions the storyline, acting, depth, or anything else.

[tysonviolin]

OK, well I think the comparison would be live show production then.... Because if you were to sell an audio file with a larger than life experience you would have to assume all the customers had a playback device that can handle it to spec. This is why movies are handled the way they are with THX and Dolby certification etc. With music this can be compared to the loudness war. Why hasn't someone with some clout, like George Lucas in the film industry, stepped forward with some certification program? This could encompass everything from loudness of a recording to the internal amplifier specs on personal listening devices. There's money to be made here if it is marketed well. Beyond that, I can't see the parallel between movie production and audio production. Avatar was animated. In the late 80s and early 90s designers dreamed of doing this with physical modeling synths but it turns out, our ears are much more sensitive than our eyes and are not as easily fooled (the physical modeling did turn out to be quite good for circuits). I think that it is the nature of our eyes to want to be fooled. You can hang a guy upside down for a couple of days and when you stand him up he sees upside down. Our ears are much more discerning.

[theblue1]

Am I the only one who thinks that while the faces of the CGI humanoids is better than previous CGI faces, that the body movement seems awkwardly marionette-like?

I'll admit, I haven't seen the full movie in the theatre in 3D, so I whatever immersive qualities it has that may induce suspension of disbelief were probably lost on me, but from the high rez trailers I've seen, while it's clearly some of the best CGI yet, and the backgrounds (of what I've seen) seemed truly quite spectacular, the body movement, arms, legs, torsos, head, it all seemed oddly stiff and puppet-like.

As I wrote a while back, if the movie has a poetic emotional sweep and artistic vision, then it can probably soar above whatever limitations I note... but from many if not most of the reports back from folks I've talked to who saw the movie in a 3D theatre, while they mostly felt it was properly spectacular, the story and characters seemed to leave viewers more divided on whether or not they matched up to the technical innovations.


And back to the question implicit in the OP, the economic returns on big selling movies dwarf those on most records -- and it's a little easier to make good predictions about what movies will hit big than which albums will.

Also, I think many of the same processes are at work...

The drive is to be able to make movies and records more cheaply as well as to 'control the quality' more tightly in order to minimize marketing uncertainty. Virtualization and new editing techniques have revolutionized both in different, but somewhat parallel ways.

[Lifted]

If we are talking about technology wise, then the music is advancing, with more and more people trying to achieve a real 3D sound (literally, not our gearslutz definition of 3D sound ), it's been taking a minute though.

Movie/TV industry is advancing much further and much faster.

Japanese are putting out 3D TVs on the market this year, and I'm talking about putting it out for CONSUMERS and not professional or specialized studios.

More people are interested in a video side of things, because we as humans are always bound to like something visually appealing more than something sonically/auditory appealing. That's why we are buying that new looking car, with fresh candy paint, and clean interior most of the time. Nice looking house, nice looking clothes, sexy microphones, etc.

Did you ever had your roof torn off when you have seen a beautiful chick strolling right by you? Last thing you was thinking about is what does her voice sounds like? It was more along the lines of: DAAAAAAAAMN LOOOK AT THEM TITIES!!! WHAT A FINE ASS!!! MMMM-MMMM

It's simple as this.

[RockManDan]

i think honestly its because we are inherently more visual creatures than auditory ones. As hard as it may be for us audio pros to admit it, humans take in more usefull info in a day through the eyes than through the ears..at least consciously. There is a lot that we take in and process sound-wise that we don't even notice, but as far as consciously consuming data, eyes are where its at. But they go hand in hand. I mean honestly as great as Avatar was visually, the sound fx were pretty pedestrian and serviceable. I noticed several animal fx that were very similar to other movies, and often the dialogue and gun sounds didnt have appropriate reverberation to reflect the space that they appeared in visually. This was an issue that REALLY bugged me about teh starwars prequels, but thats another story. Point is, joe average doesnt care about complete versimilitude in sound because he just doesnt think about it, whereas he CAN think and notice how the facial expressions and overal movements in Avatar are way beyond even previous benchmarks (Im thinking of King Kong as the most believable and 'actually-there' looking mo-cap character up till now).

THere just isnt as much money to be made in pushing the envelope audio-wise. Sometimes you get directors that care, like Spielberg who seeks to create realistic soundscapes even in non-fantasy settings like Munich, or in out-there stories like War of the Worlds (great sound design there).

I think the best example as it relates to Avatar is the score. I mean seriously. James Horner got nominated for this score? It baffles me. THe man hasn't written more than 3 or 4 original melodies since 1990, and every movie he does is a ripoff of his previous work. He was great in the 80's and created some great action music and even kept pushing himself in the 90's a little, but since then its just the same melodies and textures over and over again. But hey, to joe average having a score that practically rips off other big oscar winnners is a good thing...it helps to make the movie more epic to them, but not in a real way, its more of a conditioned pavlovian way. People like to harp on Zimmer and his clones, but for all the generic Pirates-like scores out there, Zimmer really pushes himself on smaller scores by using different sounds, textures, and influences. I see none of this in Horners work, and yet he is the composer for the top two highest grossing films of all time, both from James Cameron. Just shows, music is an afterthought, and more about evoking recognition of someones else's creativity to make the end product look better instead of truly creating something new.
-dan

[tysonviolin]

Originally Posted by RockManDan

i think honestly its because we are inherently more visual creatures than auditory ones. As hard as it may be for us audio pros to admit it, humans take in more usefull info in a day through the eyes than through the ears..at least consciously. There is a lot that we take in and process sound-wise that we don't even notice, but as far as consciously consuming data, eyes are where its at. But they go hand in hand. I mean honestly as great as Avatar was visually, the sound fx were pretty pedestrian and serviceable. I noticed several animal fx that were very similar to other movies, and often the dialogue and gun sounds didnt have appropriate reverberation to reflect the space that they appeared in visually. This was an issue that REALLY bugged me about teh starwars prequels, but thats another story. Point is, joe average doesnt care about complete versimilitude in sound because he just doesnt think about it, whereas he CAN think and notice how the facial expressions and overal movements in Avatar are way beyond even previous benchmarks (Im thinking of King Kong as the most believable and 'actually-there' looking mo-cap character up till now).

THere just isnt as much money to be made in pushing the envelope audio-wise. Sometimes you get directors that care, like Spielberg who seeks to create realistic soundscapes even in non-fantasy settings like Munich, or in out-there stories like War of the Worlds (great sound design there).

I think the best example as it relates to Avatar is the score. I mean seriously. James Horner got nominated for this score? It baffles me. THe man hasn't written more than 3 or 4 original melodies since 1990, and every movie he does is a ripoff of his previous work. He was great in the 80's and created some great action music and even kept pushing himself in the 90's a little, but since then its just the same melodies and textures over and over again. But hey, to joe average having a score that practically rips off other big oscar winnners is a good thing...it helps to make the movie more epic to them, but not in a real way, its more of a conditioned pavlovian way. People like to harp on Zimmer and his clones, but for all the generic Pirates-like scores out there, Zimmer really pushes himself on smaller scores by using different sounds, textures, and influences. I see none of this in Horners work, and yet he is the composer for the top two highest grossing films of all time, both from James Cameron. Just shows, music is an afterthought, and more about evoking recognition of someones else's creativity to make the end product look better instead of truly creating something new.
-dan

Music in film has ALWAYS been about the familiar.

[Chrislpp]

Because that industry stimulates not only the hearing sense, but another one called sight.

Double the senses entertained = more bang for the buck

People use their eyes more than their ears, and in this age of vanity, it's no surprise fake looking models in magazines are far more popular than fake sounding singers on the radio.

My 0.02

[brooklynhero]

I look at Avatar as being a milestone in big budget crap.

How many record companies made millions by polishing a derivative turd?

Content endures - technology does not.

I'm amazed by how many people saw Avatar and have flat out tld me the story was garbage - but the movie was so visually stunning.

Everytime I think about this I think - "Gee, what a sign of the times."

There are recordings out there that are stunning AND have wonderful production

just like there are films that have both fantastic production AND content.

but isn't Avatar the equivalent of a Las Vegas light show? All fluff and no stuff?

Personally I think Dan Lavry said it the best in a LENGTHY thread here on GS a few years ago.

As the digital recording medium progresses to it's theoretical absolutes - the result is a more "analog sound"

which is something we already have.

SO - the future of music production is actually the past - just more effortless and highly portable.

THE future of film - does not necessarily parallel the future of music

nor should it.

[Dean Roddey]

One could make a reasonable argument that Avatar is an example of the evolution of movies towards the current state of music, i.e. more about production than performance.

[George Necola]

If you have a shitty product, use high quality marketing..
Apple..

Concerning avatar:
Nice fx, but no story. Sad but true.
I still prefer a movie like broken flowers.. But that might be a matter of taste snd what you expect from the entertainement industry..

[Pale Pyramid]

music could sound this 3D in tha boxx. just give Softube and UAD $400 million every 2 years to spend on product development. good luck.

[scud133]

this thread raises an interesting question.

Why isn't there a THX-equivlent standard for high quality audio (both content and playback equipment?)

They have THX-certified dvds, as well as THX-certified home theater gear --- why not the same for the music world?

[Dean Roddey]

Originally Posted by scud133

this thread raises an interesting question.

Why isn't there a THX-equivlent standard for high quality audio (both content and playback equipment?)

They have THX-certified dvds, as well as THX-certified home theater gear --- why not the same for the music world?

It could be done. But it might be like herding cats, I dunno. The k-system is sort of that on the production side.

There could of course be a requirement for standardized average level measurements which could be used by playback equipment to equalize everything, and therefore short cut the marketing reasons for higher and higher average levels. But, the problem now is that after all this time I don't know if it's really the marketing people who are pushing it. It'skind of become the sound of modern music and even the fans expect it to sound like that.

[synthoid]

I had exactly the same thought as the OP after seeing Avatar. How come there aren't immersive 3-D audio experiences to match the development that's going on in video? The sound in that movie is perfectly ordinary.

If you compare the synthetic sound sources we use to the 3-D animation environments that are used to create a film like that, it seems like we are working with sticks and stones. Those guys (3-D animators) work with complex physical models of the stuff that they are 'drawing'; the models are subsequently rendered into images. We have, you know, an oscillator through a low-pass filter. Same as in 1970. I mean, there is some physical modeling stuff in audio too (like Logic's Sculpture, and others) but they are primitive compared to the modeling that goes on in high-powered animation. No one is creating physical models of entire scenes and rendering them into 3-D audio, for example, so far as I know.

-synthoid

[theblue1]

Originally Posted by scud133

this thread raises an interesting question.

Why isn't there a THX-equivlent standard for high quality audio (both content and playback equipment?)

They have THX-certified dvds, as well as THX-certified home theater gear --- why not the same for the music world?

Probably worth keeping in mind that there are some real questions as to whether the THX certification is anything more than a paid-for marketing badge:

Oppo on the Inside, Lexicon on the Outside — Reviews and News from Audioholics

THX, Lexicon Official Response Regarding BD Player Certification — Reviews and News from Audioholics

[Infernal Device]

Originally Posted by theblue1

Probably worth keeping in mind that there are some real questions as to whether the THX certification is anything more than a paid-for marketing badge:

Oppo on the Inside, Lexicon on the Outside — Reviews and News from Audioholics

THX, Lexicon Official Response Regarding BD Player Certification — Reviews and News from Audioholics

I agree. Years ago I worked in a high-end stereo shop. The guys that came in wanting that THX stuff...oh man. It is like Pokemon for adults. They were WAY into the name on everything but never really enjoyed movies. They would have bought a THX certified ashtray. That is not a joke.

[steelyfan]

More Blue Oyster Cult.

nothing more, nothing less.

[Ernest Buckley]

Originally Posted by Infernal Device

Music today is over saturated with "clarity". Avatar is a good example of media these days. Everyone who talks about the movie talks about the visual effects and clarity. Nobody mentions the storyline, acting, depth, or anything else.

yup +1

[brockorama]

Originally Posted by synthoid

No one is creating physical models of entire scenes and rendering them into 3-D audio, for example, so far as I know.
-synthoid

I think you are on to something.....I am going to go model my first #1 single right now....

[changeng]

I saw a screening of Avatar on the Fox lot last night and Cameron was there answering questions. Someone who has worked with Horner asked Cameron about the score. Cameron said that's the one area of a movie he's completely in the dark about, and was totally hands-off so he pretty much trusted James Horner to deliver what was needed.

And Horner delivered (in my opinion) a very average, competent, predictable and at times, sonically blah soundtrack. To me it was the only weak point in the movie.

[up and at them]

Avatar and present day pop music are one in the same. All show, no substance.

[JP11]

Someone somewhere wrote an article about pop music now being all about huge production based on the musical numbers on the grammys....it's not enough to just sing a song......costumes and Pink dangling around like a circus clown and all that...

I could've sworn that's all been going on for years (Alice Cooper, Bowie, Elton John), not to mention MTV...Michael Jackson was making big production sound and visual music/movies...You'd think all albums now would be music/movies...

I think it'd probably be good if both music and movies went backwards though...

[peacenik]

I think the problem with most big film productions is that the producers think the music has to be a big orchestra to convey the sense of 'this is a big expensive important film' rather then what's appropriate to the story.

[brockorama]

Originally Posted by JP11

I think it'd probably be good if both music and movies went backwards though...

"My sister's keeper" moved me in the old fashioned way and it felt good. A good story still wins every time and always will IMO.

[joeq]

While Avatar was immersive on first viewing, the memory of it is that I saw a mere cartoon. With cartoon characters and a trite Disney world and it-takes-a-white-man-to-save-the-savages plotline.

Quality? Only on the most superficial level. In 10 years even the technological advances will be a joke. Look at the original prints of Star Wars today, and they look almost like King Kong. (the one with Fay Wray!) All 'wonders' in their day, all cheesy now.

We have all had the option of surround sound for ages, nobody buys it EXCEPT for watching movies, hardly anybody mixes or records straight up music for surround.

Yet well crafted surround recordings have exactly this thing that music is supposedly "missing" vis-a-vis Hollywood movies. It is the "answer" to the question in the thread's title. The technology is there, its been there for a while, just not the demand. Maybe its just because humans are a visual species, sound is merely an adjunct.

I have heard surround stuff that blows me away - that is immersive in just that 3D way - yet I don't go out and buy a set of rear speakers for my living room either.

[Jules]

Note to this forums moderator - if this descends in to clowning around delete it.