Sitcom recording? PLZ HELP!

[mini jack]

Hi guys/girls,

I am a begginer interested in sound design/mixing for films.

Landed a job for a group of ppl who are not too pro on sound issues and have hired me to record, edit and mix a new sitcom series they will start to shoot in a week.

I have absolutely no idea where to start, everything is just theory! I need a plan of action and reccomendations on gear/plugins from anyone who knows how to go about with this project asap.

Basically it will be recorded live on set. So far in my home I have a Macbook Pro a Mac Pro, 003 with PT 8 + DV Toolkit 2, Neve EQ.

At the set, they have a Smart Slate (?), ones that send time code, 2 cameras, 2 Booms, couple of lav's and 2 Boom guys at my deposit. I have also asked them to reduce the enviromental acoustics somehow as it is located in a huge and empty garage, which at the moment sounds just like, well, a huge empty garage.

My initial thought was to take my laptop and my 003 to the set and do the recording with it, not sure how good it will be for the job but at the moment thats all I got. Plus I need to be able to somehow sync the Slate with the cameras and my recording system. After some research I have read that the Slate will controll the camera and everything else should be synched to the camera. If anyone feels like being extra helpfull I can find out the models for the cameras and the Slate :P

But my main questions would be,

1) Is recording on a laptop with a 003 the worst idea ever? So far the other option is to record on Camera and I think that could be worse.
2) If No, would I need some decent Preamps?
3) If Yes, which? The Quad Neves seemed like a good option, also easy to carry. What do you think?
4) Is it really possible to synch the camera and the recording system with this Slate, or did I dream that after a drunken night?
5) If Yes, what does that actually involve? I have no experience with neither a Slate or any camera or recording.
6) Any tips or reccomendations from anyone who has had experience with sitcoms or 'on location recordings' ?

I guess the most important thing to do is to get clean recordings with TC embedded, so that I can go home and quickly edit everything and make it ready in a few days as it will be a weekly series.

Am I wrong to think so?

PS, I am also contemplating on buying Altiverb and Wave Rider? I have no reverb plugins an I heard Wave Rider can really speed things up?

Sorry for the huge nooby post but it is very important I pull this off as jobs don't come very easy :/

Thank you

[Big Andy]

Originally Posted by mini jack

But my main questions would be,

1) Is recording on a laptop with a 003 the worst idea ever? So far the other option is to record on Camera and I think that could be worse.
2) If No, would I need some decent Preamps?
3) If Yes, which? The Quad Neves seemed like a good option, also easy to carry. What do you think?
4) Is it really possible to synch the camera and the recording system with this Slate, or did I dream that after a drunken night?
5) If Yes, what does that actually involve? I have no experience with neither a Slate or any camera or recording.
6) Any tips or reccomendations from anyone who has had experience with sitcoms or 'on location recordings' ?

I guess the most important thing to do is to get clean recordings with TC embedded, so that I can go home and quickly edit everything and make it ready in a few days as it will be a weekly series.

Am I wrong to think so?

PS, I am also contemplating on buying Altiverb and Wave Rider? I have no reverb plugins an I heard Wave Rider can really speed things up?

Sorry for the huge nooby post but it is very important I pull this off as jobs don't come very easy :/

Thank you

My first impression is: You are in way over your head right now. I'm not trying to be a Debbie Downer here, but this kind of job takes a dozen people working a lot of hours to make happen.

I have a couple questions that everyone here will want to know first.

1) Is this a TV series or a Webisode?
2) Is this your clients first project?
3) What is your experience? I won't be presumptuous.
4) Is there budget to take on another editor / mixer / foley / buy sound effects?
5) Is this a hour or half hour show?
6) What kind of show is it? There are many types of SitCom... Comedy? Sci-fi? Action? Situational?
7) How many Characters?

I don't do production sound, but I do work in Film and occasionally TV and this does not sound good to me right now. You have the ability to get production sound with what you have but, your rig is in no way strong enough to handle the final Dub. Though Altiverb is great, you should be more concerned with buying an HD system, good monitors and hiring a post house to do your foley. I wouldn't recommend WaveRider or anything like that either. A lot of directors as well as Mixers would complain it kills performance and it would add issues to the maintenance and level of your roomtone.

Originally Posted by mini jack

Am I wrong to think so?

Ahh, you are gonna need help.... especially if your a "noob". You are very wrong in thinking you can pull this off by yourself for a weekly show. I'm not trying to be cynical or to sound angry, I am just concerned for you. Good luck!

[mini jack]

Originally Posted by Big Andy

My first impression is: You are in way over your head right now. I'm not trying to be a Debbie Downer here, but this kind of job takes a dozen people working a lot of hours to make happen.

I have a couple questions that everyone here will want to know first.

1) Is this a TV series or a Webisode?
2) Is this your clients first project?
3) What is your experience? I won't be presumptuous.
4) Is there budget to take on another editor / mixer / foley / buy sound effects?
5) Is this a hour or half hour show?
6) What kind of show is it? There are many types of SitCom... Comedy? Sci-fi? Action? Situational?
7) How many Characters?

I don't do production sound, but I do work in Film and occasionally TV and this does not sound good to me right now. You have the ability to get production sound with what you have but, your rig is in no way strong enough to handle the final Dub. Though Altiverb is great, you should be more concerned with buying an HD system, good monitors and hiring a post house to do your foley. I wouldn't recommend WaveRider or anything like that either. A lot of directors as well as Mixers would complain it kills performance and it would add issues to the maintenance and level of your roomtone.



Ahh, you are gonna need help.... especially if your a "noob". You are very wrong in thinking you can pull this off by yourself for a weekly show. I'm not trying to be cynical or to sound angry, I am just concerned for you. Good luck!

Thank you for your sincere reply Big Andy, brutal honesty is exactly what I need right now and I am not being sarcastic. But my thread might have made it sound a little more dramatic then it actually is.

Basically these people are new to the business themselves, their real experience lies in commercials and music video clips, but they have already shot a very amateur film which was shot in a very short period of time and I was hired to help them edit and mix. It is a free film which will be distributed over the internet, not exactly the quality that I could be proud of, but I needed the job. Their extremely low budget could not cover any professionals so they hired me, since I am pretty cheap at the moment because I am very new and desperate So they decided to keep me for the coming sitcom job as well.

Apart from a few editing jobs I previously got for a few films in another studio, that particular film is my only experience on this business. I am however not so new to the overall technology, have a basic understanding on how things work, make music, got a degree on it too not that it matters for many, can use PT, Logic, Cubase, trying to get my head around MaxMSP etc. etc.

The sitcom is a comedy series which will be along the lines of lets say, How I met Your Mother or even Married with Children. Just a couple of fixed locations ie, living room, kitchen etc. Everything will be recorded on set, not very crowded, just a hand full of actors and actresses. We will shoot 2 pilot episodes this coming week and hope to get them sold to a TV channel by the end of the month. I take no part in anything but the sound work.

The people themselves have no understanding of sound but seem to love telling me how they want things done and they are insisting on doing everything with 2 boom mics (apparently that's what they have been suggested by some so called "pro's") and record everything on set, unless of course I come up with a better idea. For the foleys and effects, I guess I can spend a few nights in the set just recording everything I need, as most furniture and location will never really change? Unfortunately at the moment there is not much budget so we have to compromise on some quality. However that will all change if they sell it and in which case I am assuming they will also be able to pay some studio for the final Dub? Not sure what that actually involves. So for the moment the 2 pilot episodes will have to be shot with whatever we got in hand, but if we succeed we will be able to hire more people to help and also buy more gear and maybe even a PT HD system! Which I know I need it but cannot afford it right now.

Oh and I do also own a pair of Mackie HR624's...

So what do you think? Also about my original questions?

Thanks again

[quadraphonics]

You are going to need to bring people on. Production Mixers and recorders will be your best friend on something like this. SitComs of the type you are describing usually have very little ADR. You alone will not be able to run two booms and control the levels. Your recording set up is not ideal, but passable. It will require soe extra work on your end. Make sure you keep detailed notes of everything that you record...

Getting good sound on set is specific discipline. I would really suggest that you look to bring someone on who has the experience. Your clients are spending money on this project and they want this to be correct. As such, I think you should let them know that while you are capable and willing to do the editorial and mixing, that the initial sound recording might need to be covered by someone(s) else.

Randall

Originally Posted by mini jack

Thank you for your sincere reply Big Andy, brutal honesty is exactly what I need right now and I am not being sarcastic. But my thread might have made it sound a little more dramatic then it actually is.

Basically these people are new to the business themselves, their real experience lies in commercials and music video clips, but they have already shot a very amateur film which was shot in a very short period of time and I was hired to help them edit and mix. It is a free film which will be distributed over the internet, not exactly the quality that I could be proud of, but I needed the job. Their extremely low budget could not cover any professionals so they hired me, since I am pretty cheap at the moment because I am very new and desperate So they decided to keep me for the coming sitcom job as well.

Apart from a few editing jobs I previously got for a few films in another studio, that particular film is my only experience on this business. I am however not so new to the overall technology, have a basic understanding on how things work, make music, got a degree on it too not that it matters for many, can use PT, Logic, Cubase, trying to get my head around MaxMSP etc. etc.

The sitcom is a comedy series which will be along the lines of lets say, How I met Your Mother or even Married with Children. Just a couple of fixed locations ie, living room, kitchen etc. Everything will be recorded on set, not very crowded, just a hand full of actors and actresses. We will shoot 2 pilot episodes this coming week and hope to get them sold to a TV channel by the end of the month. I take no part in anything but the sound work.

The people themselves have no understanding of sound but seem to love telling me how they want things done and they are insisting on doing everything with 2 boom mics (apparently that's what they have been suggested by some so called "pro's") and record everything on set, unless of course I come up with a better idea. For the foleys and effects, I guess I can spend a few nights in the set just recording everything I need, as most furniture and location will never really change? Unfortunately at the moment there is not much budget so we have to compromise on some quality. However that will all change if they sell it and in which case I am assuming they will also be able to pay some studio for the final Dub? Not sure what that actually involves. So for the moment the 2 pilot episodes will have to be shot with whatever we got in hand, but if we succeed we will be able to hire more people to help and also buy more gear and maybe even a PT HD system! Which I know I need it but cannot afford it right now.

Oh and I do also own a pair of Mackie HR624's...

So what do you think? Also about my original questions?

Thanks again

[uosdwis]

I'm sorry to have to say it, but what you are describing is pretty much a recipe for disaster. In post production you can get away with cheating and winging it to a certain extent. In production audio you cannot, unless you are very experienced and well equipped.

If you don't have the funds to hire experienced people, this is my advice:

• Forget the 003 and rent something like a Sound Devices 788T. You can put each mic on its own track and it supports timecode. And more importantly, it's stable.
• Use both lavs, boomed and possibly hidden stage mics to get as much material as possible to work from.
• If the acoustics are bad, try hypercardiods instead of shotguns on the booms.

Plug-ins or future PTHD purchases are the least of your problems. If you can walk away from the shoot with decent audio, everything will be alright. If not, nothing will save you.

[Ben B]

Your 003 system isn't going to be able to record online using SMPTE from the smart slate or cameras (even with the DV Toolkit). You'd need something on set that will do LTC to MTC conversion. Even at that, Pro Tools LE doesn't do true address lock (it freewheels), so it's not ideal.

If you can resolve that issue, make sure you have a conversation with the videographers about which SMPTE format/frame rate to use, and set up your system correspondingly. Most likely, it will be 29.97 DF. If the show is being shot in standard NTSC color video format, you might want to recommend using DF (and be prepared for the video people to not know what you're talking about if they're inexperienced).

-Ben B

[mini jack]

Thanks a lot guys!

As I have mentioned 2 experienced Boom guys will be there to help, so I am guessing they will do the hardest work while I make sure everything is OK on the recording end and once we get clear recordings then I am positive I can handle the rest from there.

I know it is a risky job and I am not too equipped nor experienced enough to do an ideal job, but neither are they and they cannot afford anyone who can do an ideal job anyway. So I have no choice but to research and do the best I can. Which is why I came here

So apart from keeping a good record of everything I record and making sure the levels are fine, are there any other crucial steps I have to look out for?

I would love to be able to rent a recording device but like I said, no one gets paid until we sell, is a laptop really that bad? It might not be very stable but so far PT8 seems to be running well. Is it just about stability or are there any other bad sides to recording on a laptop?

[mini jack]

Originally Posted by Ben B

Your 003 system isn't going to be able to record online using SMPTE from the smart slate or cameras (even with the DV Toolkit). You'd need something on set that will do LTC to MTC conversion. Even at that, Pro Tools LE doesn't do true address lock (it freewheels), so it's not ideal.

If you can resolve that issue, make sure you have a conversation with the videographers about which SMPTE format/frame rate to use, and set up your system correspondingly. Most likely, it will be 29.97 DF. If the show is being shot in standard NTSC color video format, you might want to recommend using DF (and be prepared for the video people to not know what you're talking about if they're inexperienced).

-Ben B

Thanks Ben B, what is the downside of not being able to record with SMPTE? I am guessing from you reply that even if I am able to convert LTC to MTC I still will not be able to utilise it properly? Does this mean I will have to synch everything manually afterwards?

[Ben B]

Originally Posted by mini jack

Thanks Ben B, what is the downside of not being able to record with SMPTE? I am guessing from you reply that even if I am able to convert LTC to MTC I still will not be able to utilise it properly? Does this mean I will have to synch everything manually afterwards?

MTC freewheel will probably be accurate enough for short takes. If you can't sync up at all, make sure you record the slate claps so you can manually sync up later.

If you are able to use MTC, at least the production audio in PT will line up with the tape TC in post.

-Ben B

[mini jack]

Originally Posted by Ben B

Your 003 system isn't going to be able to record online using SMPTE from the smart slate or cameras (even with the DV Toolkit). You'd need something on set that will do LTC to MTC conversion. Even at that, Pro Tools LE doesn't do true address lock (it freewheels), so it's not ideal.

If you can resolve that issue, make sure you have a conversation with the videographers about which SMPTE format/frame rate to use, and set up your system correspondingly. Most likely, it will be 29.97 DF. If the show is being shot in standard NTSC color video format, you might want to recommend using DF (and be prepared for the video people to not know what you're talking about if they're inexperienced).

-Ben B

Ben,

Could this be a solution to the problem you have pointed out?

Mini Review | noBusiness-soft.com SMPTE Reader Software LTC-to-MTC Conversion for Pro Tools

[soundboy]

Is this going to be 3 camera live, or single camera shot by shot? It will make a difference in how you approach this. If it's 3 cameras to a switcher, record your audio to the decks, not separate media. Are they going to rehearse the show, and perform straight through? For the dress and tech, rehearse the boom moves as well, so the grips can see if they need to flag for boom shadow. If it's single camera, send a reference mix to the camera. You'll need it. Your boom will give you the smoothest and most natural sound. It's your main weapon. Think of the lavs as a last resort to catch stuff the boom missed. Will there be an audience? You will need audience mics if there is. If not, will they be "laughing" the show afterwards?(mixing in canned laughs and applause) If yes, then encourage the crew, and who ever else is there to laugh. If the actors don't know where the laughs are, they wont pause for them, and you will have a very hard time cutting in audience reactions. Plus, purely on a performance level, the actors will perform better with a responsive audience. You, are going to learn a lot! And it's going to be hard.

[mini jack]

Originally Posted by soundboy

Is this going to be 3 camera live, or single camera shot by shot? It will make a difference in how you approach this. If it's 3 cameras to a switcher, record your audio to the decks, not separate media. Are they going to rehearse the show, and perform straight through? For the dress and tech, rehearse the boom moves as well, so the grips can see if they need to flag for boom shadow. If it's single camera, send a reference mix to the camera. You'll need it. Your boom will give you the smoothest and most natural sound. It's your main weapon. Think of the lavs as a last resort to catch stuff the boom missed. Will there be an audience? You will need audience mics if there is. If not, will they be "laughing" the show afterwards?(mixing in canned laughs and applause) If yes, then encourage the crew, and who ever else is there to laugh. If the actors don't know where the laughs are, they wont pause for them, and you will have a very hard time cutting in audience reactions. Plus, purely on a performance level, the actors will perform better with a responsive audience. You, are going to learn a lot! And it's going to be hard.

Thank you Soundboy, learning and hard work is what I like!!!

When you say "reference mix to the camera", do you mean it should also be recording audio so I can use it as reference afterward?

For the moment it is single camera and no audience. This week we will all go and test everything out at the set when the construction is over, where I can get a better idea on how everything will evolve.

Hopefully I will be back with more specific and a lot more annoying questions

ps, I have just found out that our camera is a Cannon 7D photography machine!?!

Is that even possible!?

[Etch-A-Sketch]

Originally Posted by mini jack

what is the downside of not being able to record with SMPTE? I am guessing from you reply that even if I am able to convert LTC to MTC I still will not be able to utilise it properly? Does this mean I will have to synch everything manually afterwards?

Yup... you have to realize what is going to happen with the audio after you finish recording it...

The picture is going to get loaded into Final Cut Pro or an Avid Media Composer system. Your audio will also get loaded into this system. If you took great notes and labeled everything correctly, your audio takes will get matched up to the picture takes they belong too... BUT!!! you and the camera operators are never going to be hitting record and stop at the exact same times... Because of this, having timecode stamped into the audio files will make it easy for the picture editor to lock up your audio to their picture. Without it, they need to visually (manually) sync up the clapper to the spike the clapper makes in all the audio files (remember you have 2 booms and several lavs). Most likely they aren't going to bother, and they'll just use the camera's built in mic (or the stereo feed you sent to the camera on the set).

Then they go and edit down the 12~24 hours worth of footage into a 22 minute episode. When they give you the OMF to start sound editing and mixing, you will then have to sift through ALL of your audio recordings to find the little snippets they used from all the different takes and basically rebuild your OMF from scratch (because you didn't use timecode). It can be a huge PITA.

Also, I know protools has problems with timecode when it goes over a certain hour (I think it's either over 12 or over 24 hours). This can be a problem on the set.

I strongly suggest you get something like the Sounddevices 788T. It's designed specifically for this purpose. File naming and timestamping and everything is so much easier with something like that. Plus you can record a mono or stereo mix onto separate tracks simultaneously to recording all the individual mics.

Another thing I recommend is to know what mics you have at your disposal. Most sitcoms are shot on a sound stage, have high ceilings and can get away with using shotgun mics. Since you are shooting in a garage, a cardioid pattern, wide cardioid pattern or hypercardioid pattern boom mics will probably be a better choice than a shotgun. This will also work to your advantage if there are a few people in the scene. With two booms, one boom is stage left the other stage right. With the cardioid (or even wide cardioid) pattern you can pick up an area of people (say sitting at a kitchen table or a sofa) even if the boom is only 2 or 3 ft above them. Also, positioning the booms is probably going to be tough since the ceiling of the garage is going to get in the way. If at all possible, see if they can give you a small LCD feed of the camera. Grab a couple in-ear walkie talkies so you can communicate with the boom operators and tell them when they are in the shots. Sometimes the camera men, DP, and director are focusing on the actors and may not notice the tip of the boom poking in the top of the frame. YOU noticing that can and telling them immediately to "lift it up" could save the shot.

Oh, and by the way, its best if you are AS FAR AWAY from the set as possible. When I've been on set, the production mixer is usually at least 30' or 40' away... often times down the hall and around the corner! LOL. I remember when I was on the set of Alias, they were doing a living room scene, and the sound mixer was down the hall in the office conference room set! The more isolated you are, the more you can really hear what you are getting in your headphones.

Someone else also mentioned using hidden stage mics. This is also a great idea... taping a wireless pack underneath a coffee table and covertly running the wire up into the centerpiece and hiding a mic in the centerpiece could save a take that the other mics don't catch.

[Ben B]

Originally Posted by mini jack

Ben,

Could this be a solution to the problem you have pointed out?

Mini Review | noBusiness-soft.com SMPTE Reader Software LTC-to-MTC Conversion for Pro Tools

Yeah! Thanks for posting this!

-Ben B

[mini jack]

Originally Posted by Ben B

Yeah! Thanks for posting this!

-Ben B

No problem, thanks for bringing it up!

So let me get this straight; I should now -in theory- be able to route the signal that comes from the camera/slate to a midi port of the 003, meaning it would start and stop in sync with the camera?

So even if we don't use a smart slate, both recorders could be in sync.

But I must make sure that the frame rate of PT matches to whatever the camera man has his camera set to, am I correct?

[mini jack]

Originally Posted by Etch-A-Sketch

Yup... you have to realize what is going to happen with the audio after you finish recording it...

The picture is going to get loaded into Final Cut Pro or an Avid Media Composer system. Your audio will also get loaded into this system. If you took great notes and labeled everything correctly, your audio takes will get matched up to the picture takes they belong too... BUT!!! you and the camera operators are never going to be hitting record and stop at the exact same times... Because of this, having timecode stamped into the audio files will make it easy for the picture editor to lock up your audio to their picture. Without it, they need to visually (manually) sync up the clapper to the spike the clapper makes in all the audio files (remember you have 2 booms and several lavs). Most likely they aren't going to bother, and they'll just use the camera's built in mic (or the stereo feed you sent to the camera on the set).

Then they go and edit down the 12~24 hours worth of footage into a 22 minute episode. When they give you the OMF to start sound editing and mixing, you will then have to sift through ALL of your audio recordings to find the little snippets they used from all the different takes and basically rebuild your OMF from scratch (because you didn't use timecode). It can be a huge PITA.

Also, I know protools has problems with timecode when it goes over a certain hour (I think it's either over 12 or over 24 hours). This can be a problem on the set.

I strongly suggest you get something like the Sounddevices 788T. It's designed specifically for this purpose. File naming and timestamping and everything is so much easier with something like that. Plus you can record a mono or stereo mix onto separate tracks simultaneously to recording all the individual mics.

Another thing I recommend is to know what mics you have at your disposal. Most sitcoms are shot on a sound stage, have high ceilings and can get away with using shotgun mics. Since you are shooting in a garage, a cardioid pattern, wide cardioid pattern or hypercardioid pattern boom mics will probably be a better choice than a shotgun. This will also work to your advantage if there are a few people in the scene. With two booms, one boom is stage left the other stage right. With the cardioid (or even wide cardioid) pattern you can pick up an area of people (say sitting at a kitchen table or a sofa) even if the boom is only 2 or 3 ft above them. Also, positioning the booms is probably going to be tough since the ceiling of the garage is going to get in the way. If at all possible, see if they can give you a small LCD feed of the camera. Grab a couple in-ear walkie talkies so you can communicate with the boom operators and tell them when they are in the shots. Sometimes the camera men, DP, and director are focusing on the actors and may not notice the tip of the boom poking in the top of the frame. YOU noticing that can and telling them immediately to "lift it up" could save the shot.

Oh, and by the way, its best if you are AS FAR AWAY from the set as possible. When I've been on set, the production mixer is usually at least 30' or 40' away... often times down the hall and around the corner! LOL. I remember when I was on the set of Alias, they were doing a living room scene, and the sound mixer was down the hall in the office conference room set! The more isolated you are, the more you can really hear what you are getting in your headphones.

Someone else also mentioned using hidden stage mics. This is also a great idea... taping a wireless pack underneath a coffee table and covertly running the wire up into the centerpiece and hiding a mic in the centerpiece could save a take that the other mics don't catch.

Thank you for your huge reply Etch-A-Sketch!

I am guessing the sync problem will be sorted out with this utility, which leaves me with the next problem, recording quality sounds.

The garage is not exactly a garage as we know it, it is huge and higher than anyone can reach. It is good for boomers but bad for acoustics.

So you suggest that the whole thing should be recorded both in stereo and in mono? Could I ask why? Is there a certain technique of doing these things, as in certain sounds always having to be mono while others stereo?

The 788t looks like exactly what I need! Hopefully sometime in the near future!

[Etch-A-Sketch]

Originally Posted by mini jack

No problem, thanks for bringing it up!

So let me get this straight; I should now -in theory- be able to route the signal that comes from the camera/slate to a midi port of the 003, meaning it would start and stop in sync with the camera?

So even if we don't use a smart slate, both recorders could be in sync.

But I must make sure that the frame rate of PT matches to whatever the camera man has his camera set to, am I correct?

Yes and no... technically speaking the timecode probably isn't coming from the camera (although I guess it might be in your situation?). Usually there's a separate timecode generator that all the stuff syncs to. Again, you should probably ask them how they are generating SMPTE and how they plan on distributing it to the Smart Slate and to you.

Just a quick google search turned up this... it might be a good start for you...but you should definitely look into the setup more so you understand what is going on.

How to Use a Smart Slate | eHow.com

[soundboy]

A mix on the actual tapes can be used as a reference to sync your dailies. I know a couple of camera people who are using the Canon 7D for special looks. It's a digital SLR with HD video capabilities. I don't think it spits out time code, or accepts sync. You need to feed this camera a mix, or you will be syncing your dailies to the clapper. You may encounter problems with sound drifting out of sync on longer shots. I don't know if the camera has any kind of internal sync.

[Ben B]

Originally Posted by mini jack

No problem, thanks for bringing it up!

So let me get this straight; I should now -in theory- be able to route the signal that comes from the camera/slate to a midi port of the 003, meaning it would start and stop in sync with the camera?

So even if we don't use a smart slate, both recorders could be in sync.

But I must make sure that the frame rate of PT matches to whatever the camera man has his camera set to, am I correct?

The software you linked to accepts LTC into the Mac sound card's 1/8" input, and sends it through the IAC bus to PT. You would not be using the MIDI ports on the 003 in this case.

If PT is set to record online, and is synced up successfully with the software you linked, it would be a huge step in the right direction. All the production audio will live in the PT timeline exactly where it should relative to the timecode being used at the shoot. Assuming the same timecode is being used by everyone, your audio should line up just fine in post.

-Ben B

[Etch-A-Sketch]

Originally Posted by mini jack

Thank you for your huge reply Etch-A-Sketch!

I am guessing the sync problem will be sorted out with this utility, which leaves me with the next problem, recording quality sounds.

The garage is not exactly a garage as we know it, it is huge and higher than anyone can reach. It is good for boomers but bad for acoustics.

So you suggest that the whole thing should be recorded both in stereo and in mono? Could I ask why? Is there a certain technique of doing these things, as in certain sounds always having to be mono while others stereo?

The 788t looks like exactly what I need! Hopefully sometime in the near future!

Well, technically there really is no reason to do one or the other except for what the cameras need and the picture editor wants.

Final Cut and Avid are capable of keeping ALL simultanously recorded audio together and in sync, even though the picture editor might only be listening to a mono or stereo mix of what you recorded. I'm not exactly sure how it works in FC or Avid, I don't edit picture. But I do know that it is possible and have gotten OMFs with the mono camera "ref" on A1 and then all the other mics on A2-A9 (inside the OMF).

So... sometimes depending on how low budget the camera is, they might record timecode to one side of the stereo audio in, and a mono mix of all your mics as a "reference" audio track on the other side. Sometimes they record a stereo mix of all your mics to the camera as a ref track if the camera has timecode sync abilities built-in (and in those situations you can do things like put all booms to one side and all lavs to the other, or one actor to one side one to the other, whatever else you feel like doing).

You aren't really recording in stereo... just because you have two boom operators and one is on either side of the shot, doesn't mean you are recording in stereo... you just have them their to try and catch the different people in the scene as they walk around the set. if someone is stage left and facing stage right while talking, the boom on stage right might pickup the actor's voice better than the boom on stage left which could be directly overhead or behind the actor.

If you have two people in the scene, say a living room. One is stage right by the "front door" and the other is stage left sitting on a lazy boy and they are having a conversation, depending on the blocking it might make more sense to have the boom on the left side capture the actor on the right side and the boom on the right side capture the actor on the left side. Or maybe it would work better the other way around... who knows!?! You just have to approach each shot and see what works best to keep the mics out of the frame, but in direct line of sight of the actor's face/mouth. If the actor turns his head away from the boom, you are gonna notice it/hear it. If the actor keeps turning from left to right, having both booms aimed at him/her might work best.... and so on and so forth... The boom operators will probably do this kind of stuff automatically if they have experience (as you mentioned).

If the ceiling is really high, then maybe a shotgun would work best... That might be something you want to experiment with when you are setting up.

Also another thing to check and make sure they have, If you are using lavs, there are these things you can get to put over the lav mic that stops a lot of the clothing scratching noises. I forget what they are called, maybe someone else here knows what they are called. But they work pretty well.

[Kuba_Pietrzak]

What I can see (read) is, that there is a need to separate these two things:
to think that one knows how to do something
and
to be sure how to do something.

Because software's learning curve is rather easy these days, it might look like most film-related sound tasks are easy... but they're not.

There is lots of theory, lots of know-how.
And that's why typical career starts from assistant, because this way there is an opportunity to learn how to deal with people and problems at the shooting set.


I do understand, that what I wrote above doesn't help or solve possible or existing problems, but I would like to point out, that what pros do might look like an easy tasks (anything from shoot to final print), but it is not exactly like this...

All best,
Kuba

[philper]

I'm a production sound mixer, as well as a postie. It sounds to me like the people you are working for do not understand production sound at all, and also don't understand how tough bad production sound will make their post-production and how massively it will negatively influence the success of the whole project. Production sound is one of things that separates amateur from professional filmmakers, and how a filmmaker looks at dealing with sound is a very good indicator of their experience. If it is not possible to hire properly equipped professionals to deal with your production sound recording and you intend to do it yourself (without much experience at it), then you should KEEP IT SIMPLE. The filmmakers need to design shots that are mostly possible to record simply, by which I mean one or two boom mics. You should equip yourself with a small, high quality, battery powered and VERY MOBILE recording setup--forget about the laptop and ProTools for this kind of thing. The very best way I have found to deal with shoots like this is to treat the sound recording like it was a documentary. Don't get tangled up in the notion that you will do everything or even a lot of the recording with lavs/wirelesses: if you don't have any experience with them they will absolutely hose you--especially if you have wardrobe people who do not understand the concept of sound-friendly fabrics (or the actors are wearing their own clothes). No rules apply all the time, but I've gotten through MANY shoots like what you describe with a simple doco rig, and delivered very usable sound in unfavorable conditions. As to treating the set for audio, you will have to get heavily involved--most people, even movie professionals from other departments, simple do not understand what needs to be accomplished. Last thought: meet with the post production people (if that isn't you) and map out what they want vs what you can deliver NOW.

Philip Perkins

[Etch-A-Sketch]

Originally Posted by Etch-A-Sketch

Also another thing to check and make sure they have, If you are using lavs, there are these things you can get to put over the lav mic that stops a lot of the clothing scratching noises. I forget what they are called, maybe someone else here knows what they are called. But they work pretty well.

Found 'em

Rycote | Undercover - Lavalier Wind Cover | 065504 | B&H Photo

[surflounge]

you'd be king with this solution Metacorder

[philper]

Originally Posted by surflounge

you'd be king with this solution Metacorder

I use this app all the time and it works very well (not cheap). But the OP needs to get very mobile and NOT be tied to AC and a bunch of gear made for studio work.

Philip Perkins

[philper]

Originally Posted by Etch-A-Sketch

Found 'em

Rycote | Undercover - Lavalier Wind Cover | 065504 | B&H Photo

These things do not stop clothing noise at all. That's not what they are for--they are made for WIND protection and to flatten out the profile of the mic where it presses against tight clothing. If anything they can make MORE noise for you. Lack of experience with this kind of thing is why the OP needs to simplify his setup or risk destroying the set vibe with delays and loss of confidence while recording bad sound.

Philip Perkins

[Etch-A-Sketch]

Originally Posted by philper

I use this app all the time and it works very well (not cheap). But the OP needs to get very mobile and NOT be tied to AC and a bunch of gear made for studio work.

Philip Perkins

Maybe I missed something... why does he need to get very mobile?

[Etch-A-Sketch]

Originally Posted by philper

These things do not stop clothing noise at all. That's not what they are for--they are made for WIND protection and to flatten out the profile of the mic where it presses against tight clothing. If anything they can make MORE noise for you. Lack of experience with this kind of thing is why the OP needs to simplify his setup or risk destroying the set vibe with delays and loss of confidence while recording bad sound.

Philip Perkins

Hmm, then maybe I'm mistaken, but I know there something very similar to those that is designed to stick under clothing and keeps clothing movement noise to a minimum. When I saw them they looked like the ones in the picture (based off my memory) but maybe i'm wrong. Do you know what I'm talking about? They use them on set all the time.

[Etch-A-Sketch]

Originally Posted by philper

These things do not stop clothing noise at all. That's not what they are for--they are made for WIND protection and to flatten out the profile of the mic where it presses against tight clothing. If anything they can make MORE noise for you. Lack of experience with this kind of thing is why the OP needs to simplify his setup or risk destroying the set vibe with delays and loss of confidence while recording bad sound.

Philip Perkins

by the way, not sure if you read the product description or just the title but... they actually are for clothing noise, not for wind... see below...

"The Rycote Undercover pads are a disposable mount and windshield used for mounting lavalier microphones underneath clothing....The woven fabric disc is placed over the microphone and adhesive surface, sandwiching the microphone and eliminating structure and rustling noise caused by movement of clothing, cables, etc."

[smurfyou]

Originally Posted by philper

...KEEP IT SIMPLE. The filmmakers need to design shots that are mostly possible to record simply, by which I mean one or two boom mics. You should equip yourself with a small, high quality, battery powered and VERY MOBILE recording setup--forget about the laptop and ProTools for this kind of thing. The very best way I have found to deal with shoots like this is to treat the sound recording like it was a documentary. Don't get tangled up in the notion that you will do everything or even a lot of the recording with lavs/wirelesses: if you don't have any experience with them they will absolutely hose you--especially if you have wardrobe people who do not understand the concept of sound-friendly fabrics (or the actors are wearing their own clothes).
Philip Perkins

Listen to this man. I don't know him personally, but he knows what he's talking about. Not only are you a novice by your own admission, its obvious the "production" company has no idea what they're doing. This job will probably be a nightmare for you. Do yourself a favor and keep it simple.

I understand a lot of advice given so far, but lets be realistic. This is not a soundstage, the camera is like a toy, there will be no video village, no talkback system for the boom ops, etc....Trust your boom ops to capture the dialogue. If you or someone else insists on using lavs, record them on their own channel so you can easily throw them away in post. Using them as plant mics would probably be a better idea.

Oh and if this is actually a garage, be prepared for a lot of uncontrollable traffic noise/rumble. Good luck!