Sitcom recording? PLZ HELP!

[philper]

Originally Posted by Fajita

there is a "mod" for the 5D and 7D to disable AGC and allow for the use of external Mic Pres. The mod also adds audio metering.

Jules posted a link to the Magic Lantern Mod

either way, no 0dB. -12 or -6 MAX.

Yeah but you're still stuck w/ terrible analog audio electronics, bad convertors, no headroom, no monitoring, mic level input only and you've voided your warranty.

Philip Perkins

[Fajita]

Originally Posted by philper

Yeah but you're still stuck w/ terrible analog audio electronics, bad convertors, no headroom, no monitoring, mic level input only and you've voided your warranty.

Philip Perkins

agreed, but for a guide track... not too bad. Problem is he will have to take some serious sound notes, because it's all manual sync. The camera does not output TC or accept TC input, so on that note, he's SOL.

the 5D and 7D are pretty cameras, but not ready for filmmaking. Rent a RED ONE.

[nucelar]

Hi, this was quietly mentioned on another thread and I think it deserves more attention.
I haven't tested it, but I think it's a very elegant solution for these kind of productions.
It syncronizes audio to video without TC. Compatible with FCP and Vegas
Singular Software: PluralEyes

[danijel]

Originally Posted by philper

Have you actually used these? I have a bag of them here in my hand. My boomies and I rejected them after they made our wardrobe noise issues worse. So far their main function has been to flatten the mic profile inside wardrobe.

Philip, the Rycote undercovers have become my go-to lav mounting accessory for COS-11. Maybe even as much as 90% of wardrobe gets it, but it's irreplaceable on flat, one-coloured T-shirts and other thin materials, as it makes no irregularities on the surface, and therefore, no shadows. We just add a new thin double-sided sticky tape [cut out in the undercover shape, to save on the stickies ] over the worn-out one, so it's pretty quick to re-position or re-glue. We almost don't take the lavs out of them anymore, we're THAT happy
The only other accessory that gets pulled out more or less regularly is the vampire clip for the TR-50 (I don't dig the CS-11 vampires). It is go-to for more ornamented wardrobe like uniforms, raincoats, jackets, period costumes etc.

[Jfriah]

Originally Posted by Fajita

Rent a RED ONE.

...and do all kinds of homework on file naming and workflow in your (video) edit session so you can find scene and take, because if you're a new user you don't want to be looking for A006_C001_100129 when you should be looking for SC023_TK09

Jeff

[Time Tech]

it's been a while since I worked FT on Sitcoms. Back in the day we used 1/2" 4 tracks, and later DA88 to record the sound.

My 2 cents is;

know that your boom operators will make or break you. Wheather the are overhead in the "greens" or on the floor with fishpoles. Be ready to do run throughs during the camera blocking and keep on the good side of the LD and his crew. They too will bury you if you cross them.

TC generation should originate from the sound booth, be time of day and feed to the TC slate. It also should be the proper frame rate for the camera and the video editors. I know this is old school, but find yourself a used PT mix 24 system with a single 888 and USD I/O. You said you have a couple of mackie mixers. Use one to record the production sound on stage. Get a couple of DBX 160 comp/ limiters and insert them on the production microphone channels. Find some one to work as your recordist. Mixing and start/stopping and logging tc numbers and takes on the production audio is not a one man job. Accurate sound report logs are as if not more important than good audio. Remember that any line pick ups, walla, room tone will not be in the same time line as where they are needed in the final mix. Accurate sound reports are a must!

It is going to get VERY crazy on a Pilot and a limited budget, and first time production company. The KISS approach is highly reccomended.

Best of luck with the show, and as we always say at the end of the day "Well, we fooled them again"

[Time Tech]

during the shoot if you miss a line inform the floor at the end of the scene It is easier (read cheaper), to catch a pick up of the line while the actor is on set and available rather than dragging him/her into an ADR session. You'll still piss off the director and maybe the talent, but the UPM will love you for it.

[philper]

Originally Posted by danijel

Philip, the Rycote undercovers have become my go-to lav mounting accessory for COS-11. Maybe even as much as 90% of wardrobe gets it, but it's irreplaceable on flat, one-coloured T-shirts and other thin materials, as it makes no irregularities on the surface, and therefore, no shadows. We just add a new thin double-sided sticky tape [cut out in the undercover shape, to save on the stickies ] over the worn-out one, so it's pretty quick to re-position or re-glue. We almost don't take the lavs out of them anymore, we're THAT happy
The only other accessory that gets pulled out more or less regularly is the vampire clip for the TR-50 (I don't dig the CS-11 vampires). It is go-to for more ornamented wardrobe like uniforms, raincoats, jackets, period costumes etc.

Glad they are working for you. Our B6s hate them.

Philip Perkins

[philper]

Originally Posted by Fajita

agreed, but for a guide track... not too bad. Problem is he will have to take some serious sound notes, because it's all manual sync. The camera does not output TC or accept TC input, so on that note, he's SOL.

the 5D and 7D are pretty cameras, but not ready for filmmaking. Rent a RED ONE.

Well, that's not true. High end commercials, LOTS of indie films and "B" camera usage on bigger projects are being shot on 5D now--I've been on them! The guide track thing is a very good idea, and makes the work of apps like PluralEyes much easier and more likely to succeed. We are doing a lot of 5D /7D work around here now, and our standard MO is to send a guide track to the camera via a cheap wireless w/a small RX (@ mic level) as a syncing guide, and roll double system audio on a real audio recorder at 24/48 w/ 30 TC, using the slating/marking device of your choice (and yes, lots of notes, but that's what we've always done for double system at any level of production). The back end (conversion+post sync) is a little bit of a pain if you are used to simply loading up camera files and starting to cut, but I think the flexibility and speed on the set are worth it.

And....the RED is far from a perfect system: I've done a lot of RED shoots now and have yet to have one that didn't have some "mystery" or mishap involved. My friends at the rental houses are eagerly awaiting the "Epic", which is said to solve a lot of the issues they have to do so much hand-holding over w/ the RED. (Let's start with the audio section.....)

Philip Perkins

[mini jack]

Hi guys, the noobs back for more!

Well, so like I said we started and today was the first day for the "trial shoots" which will run all week until we all get our things together and ppl practice their roles, which is exactly what I need, time!

We have decided to stick to 2 shotguns and recording on to my laptop with my 003, simple and efficient. We have tested the possibility of using some lav's but the noise was so incredible that we gave right up. I think they have very cheap lav's because they were brand new in the package, or maybe it was me. However the boom ppl who will be hired soon might come with better mics. BUT I will take note of the person who suggested hiding some mics around the room and have started a search for appropriate mics for the job as I still feel I should have more material in my hand, as opposed to just 2 shotgun tracks.

So for the moment, I opened an Aux for each mic which are routed to an Audio track each through Busses, I also have a Limiter added to each Aux track. Someone mentioned here earlier on that I should try and aim for a signal that is somewhere in between -6 and -10, so that is what I have tried to do, to be honest, any higher and it starts sounding bad anyways, not sure if its my setup/settings, or the mics, but that's whats going on.

So please feel free to step in and tell me that I am doing everything wrong :P or if there is anything else I should be looking out for.

ps, I use iZotope Alloy for limiting and the shotgun is a Senheiser M67 I believe. I have also figured out that if I rename the audio tracks at the beginning of each scene, the audio files get named accordingly for each take, sweet!

[Jfriah]

You're starting "trial shoots" without your boom people there? Or am I misreading your posting? Your entire sound crew should be there, learning about the sets and how to move around efficiently and stay out of bad spots, etc.

And how do the microphones "sound bad" (both the lav and the level issue---you said if you go above that point it just sounds bad)?

Check your gain stages if it is noise/hiss you are worried about.

As for hiding mics, you could end up getting really roomy DIA, which is what I'm dealing with on my current project. Lav, camera mic, and hidden mics. Not fun to try to match.

Jeff

[berniebeaudry]

Originally Posted by danijel

Philip, the Rycote undercovers have become my go-to lav mounting accessory for COS-11. Maybe even as much as 90% of wardrobe gets it, but it's irreplaceable on flat, one-coloured T-shirts and other thin materials, as it makes no irregularities on the surface, and therefore, no shadows. We just add a new thin double-sided sticky tape [cut out in the undercover shape, to save on the stickies ] over the worn-out one, so it's pretty quick to re-position or re-glue. We almost don't take the lavs out of them anymore, we're THAT happy
The only other accessory that gets pulled out more or less regularly is the vampire clip for the TR-50 (I don't dig the CS-11 vampires). It is go-to for more ornamented wardrobe like uniforms, raincoats, jackets, period costumes etc.

Any chance you could post some photos of your technique? I have B6s and like Philper I've not had good luck with using them with the undercovers.
Thanks,
Bernie

[mini jack]

Originally Posted by Jfriah

You're starting "trial shoots" without your boom people there? Or am I misreading your posting? Your entire sound crew should be there, learning about the sets and how to move around efficiently and stay out of bad spots, etc.

And how do the microphones "sound bad" (both the lav and the level issue---you said if you go above that point it just sounds bad)?

Check your gain stages if it is noise/hiss you are worried about.

As for hiding mics, you could end up getting really roomy DIA, which is what I'm dealing with on my current project. Lav, camera mic, and hidden mics. Not fun to try to match.

Jeff

No you are correct Jeff, it is the lack of funds that is pushing them to follow such a tight and unpredictable plan. And today they have started to talk about the chances for not hiring them at all, I was directing some irrelevant ppl to hold the boom and I think I got some usable recordings.

But it is so hard because the place has a lot of acoustics even if they have filled it with curtains and furniture. It always sounds as if everyone is in a "huge space", no matter what I do. I dont really know if there is anything I can do about that. Is there?

The lav's we tried had incredible amount of hiss, it was shocking! People standing next to me could hear the hiss hissing out from my headphones. Also the bad sound when I go above -6 is more of a bad distortion, maybe I have not set up my limiters properly, not sure, but just below it was fine and that's how I recorded everything today.

I literally stuck the boom right up in everyones face

[Sonsey@mac.com]

Originally Posted by mini jack

BUT I will take note of the person who suggested hiding some mics around the room and have started a search for appropriate mics for the job as I still feel I should have more material in my hand, as opposed to just 2 shotgun tracks.

"Plants", should really only be used when there's no other way to get a mic in there - for example a wide dolly shot where you can't hide a lav because of clothing (generally a lack thereof). On occasions they can save your butt, but generally they sound like a$$. Two good boom tracks are worth much more than many bad "plants". If nothing else that many tracks will create a post-production nightmare when on a tight schedule, and every extra set of tracks multiplies the potential for problems between video edit and audio. If the producers are considering the "cost" of two boom operators, now would be a good time to remind them of the "collateral" costs of NOT having them - way more post-production time, and a far inferior product, which will hurt sales...which IS what this is all about right?

[Jfriah]

Originally Posted by mini jack

...And today they have started to talk about the chances for not hiring them (boom op) at all, I was directing some irrelevant ppl to hold the boom and I think I got some usable recordings.

oh my god!!!

Man...good luck.

Originally Posted by mini jack

It always sounds as if everyone is in a "huge space", no matter what I do. I dont really know if there is anything I can do about that. Is there?

Yep: run.




But seriously: really sorry to hear all this. But--you have a job. Hopefully one you will even be paid for. You should know that 'A' way to get decent sound in a large open space is to : get close with the microphones. That would involve boom ops. The other way? Shoot in a soundstage with proper acoustical treatments AND get close with the microphones.

You're going to just have to 'deal with' the roomy and hissy recordings. And play it back in an environment that is not the shooting location and the producers will hear it and will wonder WTF.

OR---they will not even notice. I've had too many things happen recently that makes me both shake my head at the futility of it all, and also go "whew, I'm paying way too much attention for these folks; they don't notice...the audience doesn't notice..."

But the project I'm on now is a real workout. Shooting to camera mic from wherever the camera was set up. Doing their own 'ADR' for some scenes in completely different-sounding rooms CLOSE to the camera/mic. Leaving appliances running next to the camera which is whatever-distance from the actors. Shooting to camera mic on busy streets with actors 20-30' away. And thinking "oh, I thought the stuff would sound much better once audio post is done with it..."

Good luck, compadre.

[madtheory]

Just read thread quickly. First reaction... eeek!!

Just to add to what Phil said...
Boom it yourself. Get an SQN mixer and ride levels yourself. Worth it if you think this job might lead to other things. Is the show any good? If it isn't, jfriah's advice to "run" might be the best thing. The pointing of the boom mic is 90% of the sound.

This is a very good book:
Home

Originally Posted by uosdwis

If the acoustics are bad, try hypercardiods instead of shotguns on the booms.

Why? Shotguns are as hypercardioid as it is possible to get!

PS God I hate that hierarchical political toe stepping crap that goes on with some film crew. "Be nice or they will bury you". No, be nice, make no assumptions, and if they are not nice back tell them to **** off. Then they will respect you.

[Jfriah]

Yeah, my sarcastic nature should be explained: I'm PARTIALLY joking when I say 'run'. I know folks are here to assist and offer techniques and suggestions and stuff for those in need. And this OP is definnnnnnitely "in need" because of the situation and (no need to euphemize it) a new operator in this field.

Everyone has to make choices especially in this climate whether to take a gig or pass on a gig so the decision was made to accept and folks are trying to help him as best they can, which is commendable. Great group of people on here. My sarcastic sense of humour is seen as "a-hole" by many but the truth is I care about the industry and the state of 'hierarchy' that exists. (and bemoan it, hahahaha)

(I would post a link to a fantastic story I once read about the history of film and sound where the sound mixer was up in the booth and could cut a shot for sound reasons, but alas can't recall where it was-----if anyone knows, please let me know!)

It is the world in which we live and work: audio decisions made by bean counters for lack of a better phrase. We all know it and it certainly isn't getting any better (as evidenced by this very thread).

Choices are: suck it up and do it, tell them to blow and move on, try to get into a relationship of mutual respect where everyone (and the production) benefits from it.

Hopefully everyone ends up at the latter at some point.

Back to fixing my dialogue recorded with a lav mic hidden BEHIND a character. Hey, I could be jobless or out in the cold pumping gas again. Work is work--and it continues to allow me to pay for my internet access every month so I can keep reading gearslutz.


Good luck, mini jack. Keep firing questions out and people will keep answering as best they can.

Jeff

p.s. tell the producers "can I borrow a couple light stands and some duct tape and some broom sticks? I think I can get the mics in close enough if the actors don't move; we'll just go with that. Or, what do you think about a change in concept? Can they use a handheld mic and pass it around between line deliveries? Just a suggestion."

[Jfriah]

Hey mini jack---HOW much time are you going to have to cut it all together and have it mixed before the clients want to see finished product?

[philper]

Originally Posted by mini jack

No you are correct Jeff, it is the lack of funds that is pushing them to follow such a tight and unpredictable plan. And today they have started to talk about the chances for not hiring them at all, I was directing some irrelevant ppl to hold the boom and I think I got some usable recordings.

But it is so hard because the place has a lot of acoustics even if they have filled it with curtains and furniture. It always sounds as if everyone is in a "huge space", no matter what I do. I dont really know if there is anything I can do about that. Is there?

The lav's we tried had incredible amount of hiss, it was shocking! People standing next to me could hear the hiss hissing out from my headphones. Also the bad sound when I go above -6 is more of a bad distortion, maybe I have not set up my limiters properly, not sure, but just below it was fine and that's how I recorded everything today.

I literally stuck the boom right up in everyones face

I know we've all come down on you pretty hard, but ultimately you have to do what you think is best for the show given the resources and what you think you can get away with. If you have started production, then find some method that works ok (maybe you have) and stick with it. If that means boom mics and yr PT rig then do it--you probably should stop experimenting and work on making the film now. Experimenting during the shoot will make for very inconsistent audio and will distract you from the real job at hand, which most of us find hard enough as it is.

Philip Perkins

[mini jack]

Well today I found out that the trial is no more!

Whatever I take will be it and we are almost done with half of the 1st episode, 1 more episode to go before I can take them home for the post work. I suppose I get another week for that too. Once all that is done they will go on sale.

Weather was against us today and the rain made it impossible to record anything, just 1 scene!

I'm just doing it with my PT rig and 2 shotguns (second one attached to an actual broom stick!). So far its going...I won't say OK, but it is definitely going somewhere.

I will be able to get some credit if we are successful and am hoping to get a recorder for the real business, which means lots more episodes. Until then, I don't really have any other choice but to make do with what I have and that is exactly what I am doing.

I set the levels during the tests, hit record and run for the boom.

Also I can shout "cut" as much as I need to, until I think it is OK, so I just tick each line on my copy of the script and make sure I got decent recordings of each one.

I don't know what more I can do at the moment.

12 hours of this every day is god dam tiring but it has to be done...

[jjb]

Originally Posted by madtheory

Why? Shotguns are as hypercardioid as it is possible to get!

Shotguns may employ hyper / super capsules but their response is modified by the interference tube design. As a result, shotguns pick up reflections from the space in strange ways and can sound unnatural. There are exceptions, and it depends on the space, but in general a hyper is a better bet inside.

[sonnykeyes]

Originally Posted by mini jack

It always sounds as if everyone is in a "huge space", no matter what I do. I dont really know if there is anything I can do about that. Is there?

I wonder if this would help:

De-Verb: Sound Performance Lab

Sonny Keyes
Ricochet Audio
Toronto

[mini jack]

Originally Posted by sonnykeyes

I wonder if this would help:

De-Verb: Sound Performance Lab

Sonny Keyes
Ricochet Audio
Toronto

I thought of trying out something such as this but did not have one, I will try and find out, if it works well, this would be so perfect! Thanks for that!

[jjb]

Originally Posted by sonnykeyes

I wonder if this would help:
De-Verb: Sound Performance Lab

Have you used that plugin? I'd be shocked if it actually produces an acceptable result.

[mini jack]

Originally Posted by mini jack

I thought of trying out something such as this but did not have one, I will try and find out, if it works well, this would be so perfect! Thanks for that!

I just tested the demo, it is perfect! thumbsup

[Jfriah]

Best 'grumpy old man voice' Bull Puckey!!!

But, hahahaha, if it works for ya: very happy to hear it, mini! Very sorry to hear what you thought was a TRIAL recording turns out to be your real recordings... not very professional but then again: as Philip alluded to: we all make our choices and when one has no funding but still wants to create...should one fault them?

One just must expect a certain level of quality and be OKAY with that.

That said, I, too am very curious to hear some posted files. You show me yours, I'll show you mine, hahahah.

(going to play with the plugin when I get time---I've used CEDAR DNS and volume sculpting and my own reverb sends with some degree of success in the past. I still refer back to a yelled line which was supposed to be a 'basement' set and was in the dead center of a large soundstage with two walls thrown up for set dressing in camera frame. Niccccccce. Challenge me! Go on audio gods, throw it at me!---see signature)


Jeff

[Sonsey@mac.com]

Originally Posted by mini jack

I'm just doing it with my PT rig and 2 shotguns (second one attached to an actual broom stick!). So far its going...I won't say OK, but it is definitely going somewhere.

I will be able to get some credit if we are successful and am hoping to get a recorder for the real business, which means lots more episodes. Until then, I don't really have any other choice but to make do with what I have and that is exactly what I am doing.

I set the levels during the tests, hit record and run for the boom.

Also I can shout "cut" as much as I need to, until I think it is OK, so I just tick each line on my copy of the script and make sure I got decent recordings of each one.

I don't know what more I can do at the moment.

12 hours of this every day is god dam tiring but it has to be done...

I would say that you are indeed making the best of it! If you're getting acceptable results to you, then rock on. I've used the old broomstick trick myself... after a "helpful" crew member misplaced my boom... . And if they're willing to let you retake for audio then you're ahead of many. Consider it one heck of a trail by fire! Above all else you're making it work and that speaks volumes... Continued good luck to you!

[Jfriah]

Originally Posted by Sonsey@mac.com

And if they're willing to let you retake for audio then you're ahead of many. Consider it one heck of a trail by fire! Above all else you're making it work and that speaks volumes... Continued good luck to you!

Hell's yes! If they're letting YOU say 'gotta go again'---keep on keepin' on!

Yes---you are making it work. Kudos for pulling it all together and getting through the trial by fire. See you in the editing and mixing phase.

Jeff

[mini jack]

Thanks for your good wishes and help guys!

I will make sure to post a clip when done, but be sure I will have a lot more to ask when I actually receive the cut goods

Also, it looks like I will be able to make use of the Digidesign deal that is currently on, before they are done with cutting. I can trade my 003 for an HD system, half price, which is what I will do, along with some decent plug ins, recommendations definitely are welcomed!

[Jfriah]

Originally Posted by jjb

Have you used that plugin? I'd be shocked if it actually produces an acceptable result.

Tried the plugin today. I must admit: same thing could be done with gating/expansion/volume automation around dia but...for the time factor?


Saved my bacon today. (DEMO)

Jeff

of course, I don't want the clients finding out we corrected some more of their crap audio. Because..... "hey, they can 'fix' that"