Sitcom recording? PLZ HELP!

[postfieldmusic]

+ 1 for philpers advices in this matter.

When it comes to attaching lav´s, I´ve had some good experience with these:

DPA DMM0509 Miniature Concealer | DV247

Attached on the skin of the actor, or on the t-shirt/shirt/dress or whatever the actors are wearing. Use medical tape to make it stick and not move. Lav´s needs constant attention, I usually check up on them between every shot. It´s usually trial and error to find the right place for the lav´s.


arvid

[jahtao]

skimmed this but might it not be better to let the camera record sound using its own mic rather than feeding it a mix? So that if there is a drift issue, the pro-sound and the camera sound can be compared to easily identify it etc.

[Fajita]

Originally Posted by Etch-A-Sketch

Hmm, then maybe I'm mistaken, but I know there something very similar to those that is designed to stick under clothing and keeps clothing movement noise to a minimum. When I saw them they looked like the ones in the picture (based off my memory) but maybe i'm wrong. Do you know what I'm talking about? They use them on set all the time.

moleskin

[Etch-A-Sketch]

Originally Posted by Fajita

moleskin

that's a great idea! Would never thought of those!

[jjb]

Basically ditto everything Phil said. Keep it simple, use the most reliable gear you can get your hands on. Protools isn't generally found on-set unless it's for playback on a music video shoot.

[philper]

Originally Posted by Etch-A-Sketch

by the way, not sure if you read the product description or just the title but... they actually are for clothing noise, not for wind... see below...

"The Rycote Undercover pads are a disposable mount and windshield used for mounting lavalier microphones underneath clothing....The woven fabric disc is placed over the microphone and adhesive surface, sandwiching the microphone and eliminating structure and rustling noise caused by movement of clothing, cables, etc."

Have you actually used these? I have a bag of them here in my hand. My boomies and I rejected them after they made our wardrobe noise issues worse. So far their main function has been to flatten the mic profile inside wardrobe. The Rycote OVERCOVERS, with longer hair, ARE a great invention for exteriors, and make less noise inside wardrobe somehow.

You asked about why he needs to get mobile. He needs to get mobile because a low-budg shoot needs to move VERY FAST, with a minimum of fuss, just to get all the shots they need to make a cut. As few cables as possible, no need for AC etc--just like a small portable video camera. Recording low-budg drama is nothing like studio instrument recording whatsoever--it is much more low tech and physical, and the sound people need to be fast and flexible and no more tied down than the camera is.

Philip Perkins

[Etch-A-Sketch]

Originally Posted by philper

Have you actually used these? I have a bag of them here in my hand. My boomies and I rejected them after they made our wardrobe noise issues worse. So far their main function has been to flatten the mic profile inside wardrobe. The Rycote OVERCOVERS, with longer hair, ARE a great invention for exteriors, and make less noise inside wardrobe somehow.

You asked about why he needs to get mobile. He needs to get mobile because a low-budg shoot needs to move VERY FAST, with a minimum of fuss, just to get all the shots they need to make a cut. As few cables as possible, no need for AC etc--just like a small portable video camera. Recording low-budg drama is nothing like studio instrument recording whatsoever--it is much more low tech and physical, and the sound people need to be fast and flexible and no more tied down than the camera is.

Philip Perkins

My apologies. The ones i've seen used look very similar to the undercoats. Maybe there is another product that looks similar but works more effectively? The ones that were used on a project I edited worked great and I didn't have any problems with the dialogue when it came time to edit.

Also, I understand the need for mobility in most situations. But this is a static shoot. There is no movement. The set is in a garage. There are no "locations" from what the OP has described. I agree he should keep it simple, but short of dropping a few grand to do it right, why can't he setup his "cart" using a computer until the show gets picked up and he gets a budget to buy a nagra or SD recorder? I mean, he knows a dedicated recorder would make it easier for him but he just doesn't have the money. Obviously the timecode issues are a huge hurdle, but other than that its really whatever works, right? In a lot of ways if there are huge problems then maybe the producers will cough up the money for the proper equipment (less than likely, but you never know).

[stustan]

Originally Posted by mini jack

Hi guys/girls,
Landed a job for a group of ppl who are not too pro on sound issues and have hired me to record, edit and mix a new sitcom series they will start to shoot in a week.

I ask only this: After you record show#1 and begin your sound edit, and before your show#1 goes to the mix, what will you do when they start to shoot show#2? Will you stop your edit/mix on show#1 and return to the stage to record show#2, then bounce back to the show#1 edit/mix while they ask for show#2 sound edit to review?

What if all goes well and they do a show#3 on spec or otherwise? What if show#3 begins to shoot and show#1 is in the final mix stage, and show#2 is in the sound edit stage. What about deliverables for show#1 while your are in edit/mix for show#2 and trying to record for show#3? What about dealing with the picture department, juggling omf's/aaf's and drive management?

What about producers changes on any show you are currently not dealing with but now have to deal with?

What will happen when show #1, 2, 3, are in various states of post production and show#4 rears it's inevitable head?

Where will "your head be without a chicken" as my fractured phrase goes?

Maybe it's just me but I am not even thinking in term of "gear", "plugins", "computers" "workarounds", 'mic pre's", "booms, "lavs" "live audience" etc. I am thinking of things such as a "schedule", "crew of post sound professionals", a "budget", a "post production supervisor", an ADR stage, a foley stage, a sfx library, a re-recording stage.

What about music and all that entails!!??

You better give thought to how many man days/hours of editorial and mix you can allocate to each half hour of program. You better give thought to editorial equipment packages. You better find a post-production studio....your bedroom is not big enough

I am sorry but a "have laptop will travel" attitude will not go very far in what you are getting into.

[philper]

Originally Posted by Etch-A-Sketch

My apologies. The ones i've seen used look very similar to the undercoats. Maybe there is another product that looks similar but works more effectively? The ones that were used on a project I edited worked great and I didn't have any problems with the dialogue when it came time to edit.

Also, I understand the need for mobility in most situations. But this is a static shoot. There is no movement. The set is in a garage. There are no "locations" from what the OP has described. I agree he should keep it simple, but short of dropping a few grand to do it right, why can't he setup his "cart" using a computer until the show gets picked up and he gets a budget to buy a nagra or SD recorder? I mean, he knows a dedicated recorder would make it easier for him but he just doesn't have the money. Obviously the timecode issues are a huge hurdle, but other than that its really whatever works, right? In a lot of ways if there are huge problems then maybe the producers will cough up the money for the proper equipment (less than likely, but you never know).

He shouldn't use a cart because it will be in the way, and it invites the use of unsuitable gear. He needs to be able to follow action and be light on his feet. If they are editing in FCP and can use a clap slate then TC is mostly not really relevant if they keep the recording under 4 tracks. Load them all in, sync them to the clap. OMF them out after the cut to the audio posties. Keep the gear small and simple because there will be PLENTY of other problems to deal with on the set, and his learning curve on a more complex system will slow the shoot down and make for bad audio. A computer recording system without a good external clock will not keep good sync for a long take in any case. Instead of fussing w/ software he should be watching rehearsals (if they do rehearsals), how the lighting and camera moves are coming together and planning the boom mic movements around them. In many low-budg situations like this the camera itself becomes the audio recorder--not great but it happens every day. Then he really needs to pay attention to camera movement, and monitor the return from the camera audio. Most of all he needs to get with the producers and the editorial people right away and see what their expectations are and how they can realistically accomplish what is being asked for.

Philip Perkins

[Sonsey@mac.com]

I will add a resounding echo to everything Phillip has said... the man knows whereof he speaks. Having done a few lo-budgets myself, I've learned that the single best thing I can do on a production is to KEEP IT SIMPLE.

Also, one thing to be VERY aware of... At the end of the day, if you deliver BAD production audio -and believe me, it's far easier to do then you would like- the fact that there was no money, and that they didn't hire an experienced mixer, and that everyone understands that - will mean NOTHING. You WILL take the fall if the audio fails - count on it! Harsh, but very,very true...
Not saying DON'T do it, just saying - know the potential dangers ahead!

[jjb]

It would be a good idea to post your question to ramps and/or JWSound and get some more input from other folks that are out there doing production audio on a daily basis.

[soundboy]

Seeing the type of camera they are using for the shoot, I would file this project as an experiment. Nice for interesting effects in a music video, doc, or art film, but not a pro situation at all. You can shoot a max of 3 or 4 minutes before the SD chip gets too hot, and the camera shuts down. Keep this simple. Temp track to the camera for reference, rely mostly on your boom. Have fun. Low money, low stress.

[Jfriah]

I, as well, don't AIM to be Debbie Downer, but at the risk of sounding like Jerky Jeff, here's things you have already heard but I feel compelled to type them anyway (because I, too, am doing so out of love and concern for any gearslut in this crazy world we work in):

Absolutely no fault to you, minijack, but who the heck is hiring out this gig like this and WHEN does it go up?!?!?! A week? "not too pro" ? Um, yeah.

Oh my god!

Good luck to you, my friend... (and to the producers involved) May it all end well.
There's a lotta skoolin' needed between now and camera roll.

Seriously: good luck. I'm just flabbergasted. Again, this is just thinking aloud and nothing against you (more so the hire-ers here, not the hire-ee) Wow, normally one starts with a bit of experience and goes from there. Location sound on a LIVE show is one of the toughest gigs out there! And you're coming on here looking for assistance with theory and technique and what gear to use with a WEEK to go. At least you're able to get some good input from the folks here.

You're recording, editing, and mixing. Have they made any product before? What flipping tv channel is this for?!
Again... wow. Man... if there are any producers involved who have been around any other shows, when it comes time for the mix/edit, if they have any problems with the location sound it is not gonna go well. I hope you're bulletproof in the critique area (sorry, I should have said that before my posting...). Sonsey's right---there is usually only one fall guy.

I know I just stated all the obvious, but this is the 'best/worst' one I've read in a long time. The state of the industry, huh?

FLAME OFF-----------

I wish you nothing but the best of luck, my friend. I can't offer any tech advice other than what the folks are already helping you with. Audio prayers to you and your crew. Soooo many variables and the whole "what happens when show #1 is in the can, when do you find time to put it together and post it while finding time to shoot and record the other eps---Big, big task you've signed on for here. Just prepping you with the doom 'n' gloom. Now go pull this f*cker off!!!

And since this is lo-bud, I guess it begs the usual question of going with an experienced recordist vs. how much they have in their pockets...

Whew. This is a thread, that's for sure.


Jeff

[TVPostSound]

I've done my share of sitcoms.
It's one of the few types of shows where the production sound mixer, really mixes. With 5 flying booms.

When I did the sound editorial on sitcoms, 99% of the audio used came from the line mix. ADR, never. Foley, not.
The re-recording mixer rode the levels in nearly real time, more ork was done by the laugh guy that came in. He bridged the edits in real time.


Good luck!!!!






...

[Kuba_Pietrzak]

Again, it might look (or sound) as so easy task - record something with modern and user friendly equipment...

Question is: have you ever been to a pro shooting-set? or even semi-pro?

I work at the post studio every day, this is a nice, quiet place, where all things happen - yes, there are lots of "as soon as possible" to "right now" situations, but for me the shooting set looks like hell. But well, there are lots of people who deal with it with a great success. And they simply know how to do this...

There are so many unexpected issues: AC problems, humidity, temperature, batteries, not-working wires, teared plugs, broken booms... but this is just the very start: problems come, where you're starting to work with set design department, wardrobe department, AC, DOPs... believe me, there is a "constant conflict" between almost everyone and you as a sound guy: a power generator placed too close (so it is present in mics), ringing lamps, rustling cloth, knocking heels, talking-during-a-take crew/friends/other people, not to mention things like "silent stage" with 4 seconds reverb tail, jets passing by, nice highway nearby and insects flying around...

Hardware producers and software providers force people to think, that this or that is so easy with their product. But it is not. And lots of disappointments might become because of this. "Can't you clean it? Why?"

regards,
Kuba

[mini jack]

Wow look at all these replies!!

Well thanks a lot guys, I appreciate all the tips and all the "ooohhh they are sooo gonna eat you aliveeee" warnings. Both are just as important to know.

So keeping it simple seems to be the best strategy now, ditch the lav's, a couple of boom mics synched to the slate clap. I will push them to get a real camera that can be synced, I will format my laptop and hope for the best. It is just 2 episodes after all and I do have room for mistakes because they are also new to this.

For the rest, well I did look into the Sound Devices 788, wow what a machine! But 6000 pounds! Don't think I can afford it for a very long time, but the lower models seem more feasible. I know the Nagra was around the same price too.

Also someone mentioned using a Clock. I do not have a clock yet, but I have been looking for one for some time. Will this still be necessary with a portable recorder such as the Sound Devices? If so, I am thinking of getting the Isochrone OCX-V. Is that a decent choice?

I also want to know If you guys who work in this field actually spend money on your own gear, or do you always expect the client to rent/provide it for you? I was under the impression that it would make sense to collect quality gear as I went along because it would be better than having to explain, why your work is not very good, to the client who knows nothing and has provided you with hardly anything to work with, am I wrong?

Finally, I just want to add that, I would be an idiot to think that this is an "easy" job or that "anyone can do it". I would not step on any "pro-toe" with the attitude of being able to easily do what they have been practicing for many many years, that would simply be a very ignorant approach. If anything, I should know how hard it can be, since I'm working so hard to learn! But turning down such an opportunity would be equally idiotic, dont you think? Newbies have to start some where too!

However, if we do pull it off, and I dont just mean the sound but the sale, then I get to bring more experienced people on board as well as better equipment and we will do an even better job But if we don't, well nothing much changes for me, I will have another job to use as reference so I can continue to look for assistant jobs, or maybe one of you folks want an annoyingly keen, temp slave? I am able to travel!

I will try and bring a sample of the show for your butchering pleasure...

[Jussi]

What others have said. I did one of these things when I was younger. What you need is to forget the lav's, _HIRE_ a 2 track field mixer (t.ex SQN) for the days you'll need it, hire two boomboxes for the boom operators (I assume cans, poles and microphones - try cardiods instead of shotguns! - you already have) and then hook boom 1 on track 1 and boom 2 on track 2. Send the 2-track output of the mixer into the camera. You are not yet on the level to worry about AD/DA conversions or the sound quality of camera as a recorder.

On camera, take off automatic level compression (or whatever it is called), set recording for the best option possible and check that the setting are still on every now and then and especially when the camera is turned on and off. Get a long headphone cable extension and listen the output from the camera.

Then you dont have to worry about anything but to get the best sound physically; Which you should concentrate the most in the location youre in.

In post you don't need anything else but Digitranslator (to open OMF's picture department will be sending) and for master limiter Masseys L2007, because Maxim isn't great. L2009 is a bargain and you can use it for free to begin with, altho then it doesn't remember settings (write them on the comment field). Everything you need for post comes in with the PT. For this kind of a work you can easily live with the eq's and compressors Digidesign provides and you don't necessarely need DV toolkit, not yet at least.

Then when you have recorded and posted a few episodes you see better what you'll need. Maybe you need to get the lav's and timecode after all, and then you can replace your field mixer with 744 for example.

[Kuba_Pietrzak]

Originally Posted by Jussi

and you don't necessarely need DV toolkit

Doing audio to video post-production without time-code timeline?

I know, it is doable, but...
...the real joy begins, when recuts and reconforms come...


Kuba

[Jussi]

Well I kinda based my assumptions of the project on these few lines from the OP:

Basically these people are new to the business themselves [...] It is a free film which will be distributed over the internet,

So I assume the sound post can wait unless the picture is pretty much locked (actually if I was OP I would have this on contract). It doesn't sound too professional project until they sell it somewhere and then it would be probably re-shot anyway.

[mini jack]

Cheers for all that Jussi, just downloaded the plugins you recommended, I am in serious need for plugins!

And you are right, the 2 pilot episodes I need to shoot now are for the buyers eyes only. Once it is sold and more budget is secured, the story will be different.

The internet release thing, however, was for the film we worked on previously. These sitcoms will be for TV.

[stustan]

So it is morning and I have re-read my post. In the harsh light of day I would like to apologize to you, mini jack, for the tone of my post.

You were given excellent advice in this thread and I sincerely wish you the very best and hope the show is a success. Given your determination and obvious zeal the project can only benefit. Please accept my apologies.

I, and I am sure all the other posters, are curious how it all turns out. Please keep us posted.

"Roll Sound.....Speed"

Yours in Post
stustan

[mini jack]

Originally Posted by stustan

So it is morning and I have re-read my post. In the harsh light of dayI would like to apologize to you, mini jack, for the tone of my post.

You were given excellent advice in this thread and I sincerely wish you the very best and hope the show is a success. Given your determination and obvious zeal the project can only benefit. Please accept my apologies.

I, and I am sure all the other posters, are curious how it all turns out. Please keep us posted.

"Roll Sound.....Speed"

Yours in Post
stustan

Not to worry Stustan, no offense taken.

As harsh as it might have sounded, you did make a true point and they are all possible outcomes!

Thank you for your good wishes, I will keep you posted but I will probably just come back with a lot more questions in a couple of days anyways

[Ben B]

I think this will turn out better than you expect. You're obviously taking it very seriously, and you will learn a ton from the experience.

-Ben B

[uosdwis]

While it may seem attractive to just hand over a mini jack (!) to the 7D operator, I would not recommend it as the only audio recording device. For example, the AGC circuit can't be turned off, which means that you'll have BG noise ramping up during any and all quiet parts. And, as already pointed out, whatever is wrong with the audio will be considered YOUR fault, regardless of the circumstances.

What concerns me is that you appear to be thinking along the lines of a home studio engineer and not focusing on the myriad of practical problems that arise with these kind of gigs. Again, you need to worry about being able to walk away with a) having obtained passable audio, without b) having ruined the production, not about how many plug-ins you have! Muck about with your DAW is something you can do on your own, not when you have a whole bunch of people and money going to waste because you don't have your shit together.

For this gig, try to get away with the most simple and effective setup you can work out. With this new info, I'd get the two experienced(?) boom guys to do their thing (using cardiods) and focus on obtaining a stable 2ch recording device and preferably pres with limiters (otherwise set your levels low). Sync will have to be obtained manually in post from a visual reference (preferably a clapper). On the plus side, since the 7D does not lend itself well to long takes I don't think drift will pose any problems for you in post.

Best of luck!

[soundboy]

Originally Posted by uosdwis

For this gig, try to get away with the most simple and effective setup you can work out. With this new info, I'd get the two experienced(?) boom guys to do their thing (using cardiods) and focus on obtaining a stable 2ch recording device and preferably pres with limiters (otherwise set your levels low). Sync will have to be obtained manually in post from a visual reference (preferably a clapper). On the plus side, since the 7D does not lend itself well to long takes I don't think drift will pose any problems for you in post.

Best of luck!

I will respectfully disagree here. Under recorded audio is as bad as occasionally overmodulated audio. Get a limiter! Pay attention to the rehearsal, and be ready to pot down a little for the yelling or whatever. If you record too low, and I get this all the time, when you bring the dialog up to an acceptable level, the noise comes up too! So you are bringing up the background noise, from a garage, 10 to 16dbfs. Not good.

[uosdwis]

Yes, I guess 'conservatively' would have been a better word to use; just don't aim for 0 dBFS is all. Rehearsals + a capable boom op will go a long way but a limiter is indeed highly recommended.

[mini jack]

Originally Posted by uosdwis

Yes, I guess 'conservatively' would have been a better word to use; just don't aim for 0 dBFS is all. Rehearsals + a capable boom op will go a long way but a limiter is indeed highly recommended.

So do I want 0dB or not?

[Jussi]

Originally Posted by mini jack

So do I want 0dB or not?

No, peaks around -6-12 dBFS or so. Have your limiter set up properly. Use 24 bit mode.

the AGC circuit can't be turned off

What kind of a crap camera are they using...? A photographic camera?!? Are they serious with this project?

[PoxyMusic]

Originally Posted by mini jack

So do I want 0dB or not?

0db would be great, but it'll never happen. Don't bother.
Therefore, -12 to -6.

[Fajita]

Originally Posted by Jussi

No, peaks around -6-12 dBFS or so. Have your limiter set up properly. Use 24 bit mode.



What kind of a crap camera are they using...? A photographic camera?!? Are they serious with this project?

there is a "mod" for the 5D and 7D to disable AGC and allow for the use of external Mic Pres. The mod also adds audio metering.

Jules posted a link to the Magic Lantern Mod

either way, no 0dB. -12 or -6 MAX.