tv commercials

[hankdrummer]

is it me or there's really not much point following the brief (or "pitch", don't know how they say in the US/UK)

almost EVERYTIME, someone will come up with something that doesn't follow its rules, and the ad agency will go nut for it.

how often does it happen to you ? after losing a LOT of competitions, always being 2nd, i'm feeling like i won't be following the brief anymore.

[soundfx]

Um. What?

[RTR]

???????????????

[hankdrummer]

hu ho oooops


sorry, i was in a rush

my message is aimed at people who do tv commercials.

you might know that most of the time, the ad company making the commercial ask several music production companies in order to have a selection of music to propose to its client.

i work for a music production company. therefore i receive the ad company's brief (or "pitch" ?), it's two pages long, veeeeryyy detailed, and i do my best to make the best music i can, that fit their rules.

most of the time, it seems to me the one who wins the cake is, a LOT of time, the "outsider", the guy who managed to do something quite different, that doesn't completely fit the brief, yet the client always seem to pick him.

any tv music producers here feel the same ? would love to chat about that

[Spo]

Happens all the time. The only real way to get around it and sell tracks consistently is to do both. Meaning, write a track that adheres strictly to the brief, or follows the arc of their temp track, and then write one or a few that are either variations on that theme or completely out of left field. Especially when a job is open to a number of companies, it's the oddballs that stand out and either reinforce the original brief or cause the creatives to rethink the way music should work with the spot.

[smurfyou]

Well a lot of times, what a producer asks for and what they actually want end up being completely different. Keeps you on your toes.

[oakleaf]

This is why I usually avoid these gigs and just go after the smaller fish. Pay is much less, but even if it's 1/4 the pay it's still a better deal then recording (and re-recording) 10 spots before one sells. Especially considering I use a lot of live musicians in my spots.

I also like dealing with business owners directly, which you can't do at larger companies. If there's more then one person making a decision, or if you aren't dealing with that person directly, the odds of you making any money begin decreasing exponentially. I like to record the best advertising I can for a company, and then talk directly with the decision maker to convince him/her that it's the best advertising (not necessarily the best music) for the company. Try to avoid the "camels" at all cost.

Originally Posted by Spo

The only real way to get around it and sell tracks consistently is to do both. Meaning, write a track that adheres strictly to the brief, or follows the arc of their temp track, and then write one or a few that are either variations on that theme or completely out of left field.

I understand the thinking behind this quote, but don't believe it's the way to go. The more choices these people have, the worse the outcome. And if you play them two spots I can almost guarantee that they're going to come back asking you to record a third with different elements from both. And after you've finished re-recording that third spot they will tell you that it no longer has the "feel" they're going for, and they're "gonna go in a different direction", even though they were the ones who suggested parring "that trombone riff" with a heavy metal guitar part.

[dan p]

I've done hundreds of spots over the years.I would call them the lower end spots.
I freelanced for 15+ years for another company and now on my own.
Yes, I have competed for some of the spots before and 9 out of 10 we would win but the ones you lose you put your time in for free.It was "a gamble with me",and if we win we get the gig,and you get paid.
These days like you said, anything goes.Arrangement,style and vibe become everything.
Following a temp track works well.At least you have something to go on.
Now with all of the licensing its a new game.It could work out that having better temp tracks to start with gives composers a better leg to stand on.
My last big job was like this.They had a pretty good temp track that I copied and edited to picture.They had other tracks that weren't quite working and we went round and round before we agreed on what we had done was working better to picture and the vibe of the talking heads.I copied there temp and we collect royalties!
In the meantime I've been making deals with licensing companies.
If you have tracks to license that you own outright go to Musiclibraryreport.com.



Dan P

[sonnykeyes]

Originally Posted by Spo

Happens all the time. The only real way to get around it and sell tracks consistently is to do both. Meaning, write a track that adheres strictly to the brief, or follows the arc of their temp track, and then write one or a few that are either variations on that theme or completely out of left field. Especially when a job is open to a number of companies, it's the oddballs that stand out and either reinforce the original brief or cause the creatives to rethink the way music should work with the spot.

+1 to this

I actually work inside the agency, and have been asked to lay up all the tracks from the competing music houses for the creatives to assess. A detailed, comprehensive brief will yield two dozen tracks that all sound pretty much alike, so in the presentation it's the one track that's 'off-brief' but still works with the picture that gets their attention. Having said that, sometimes they've hyped the client on the musical approach in their brief, so they'll reluctantly add in one of the 'on-brief' tracks to their client presentation, but just to show the client how much better this new approach works.

My advice is to do something that works really well with the picture. If it's on brief, that's OK, but try to make sure it has something unexpected as well.

Sonny Keyes
Ricochet Audio
Toronto

[marty lester]

Originally Posted by hankdrummer

is it me or there's really not much point following the brief (or "pitch", don't know how they say in the US/UK)

almost EVERYTIME, someone will come up with something that doesn't follow its rules, and the ad agency will go nut for it.

how often does it happen to you ? after losing a LOT of competitions, always being 2nd, i'm feeling like i won't be following the brief anymore.

i feel your pain my brother. budgets WAY down, communication WAAAAY down.

marty.

[Tim Abraham]

The trick to the whole thing is to understand the brief, not to follow it.

Use the brief to figure out where the creatives are coming from and how they see the role of the music in the spot and how it supports picture and story. Stop thinking like a musician for a minute (i.e. genre, orchestration, tempo, instrumentation) and focus on how they want the music to look and feel.

Then go make two or three tracks - one that's basically a straight rip of the reference music (to cover bad cases of demo love), and then do a couple that support picture in a different way. Move quickly, it's easy to fall in love with your own treatments if you overwork them. If you don't have an idea happening in 20 minutes, take a break and come back to it when you can see it fresh.

[hankdrummer]

Originally Posted by Tim Abraham

The trick to the whole thing is to understand the brief, not to follow it.

i agree. what's sad is that they focus on details and hardly tell you about the big picture. we have to figure it out ourselves

[soundfx]

In my experience, the client often doesn't know exactly what they want, which is why they need to hear ten different versions in the first place. Countless times, I've had a client ask for a particular style, but as soon as I see the picture, my instinct says something different. I go with it and it works. Not all the time, but often.

[Spo]

True, the client often doesn't know what they want, and that's not necessarily their fault. Music briefs are written at all different stages of production. The musical vision that a creative has when a spot is in storyboard form is rarely what lays up best to an animatic, rough cut, subsequent revised cuts, or final edit. Both film and music are temporal art forms that often have a complicated relationship with each other. Sometimes it's the track that doesn't hit any of the cuts that actually serves the spot best. Sometimes it's a matter of a lead instrument living in a different frequency range than the final voiceover talent that puts a track over the top (and that often doesn't get recorded until the final mix). I understand that for those who don't do this as their everyday job, the time it takes to write several tracks and endlessly revise them may seem like a waste. If you take the job seriously though, then you have to understand and accept all the moving parts involved, where music fits in amongst the other elements of the production, and the hierarchy of approval that the music must go through before going on air. My suggestion to write in and around the brief only a pragmatic suggestion based on a knowledge of the process, for those who wish to be successful at selling commercial tracks.

[Tim Abraham]

Originally Posted by Spo

True, the client often doesn't know what they want, and that's not necessarily their fault.

That's right, it's not their fault. If you want to make a living writing music for ads, it means that the most important part of your job is helping the ad agency figure out what music their own spot needs, just as the ad agency's job is to help their client understand their own product.

If you're complaining that the agencies give crappy briefs, you don't really understand the business. Of course they have a hard time talking musical language, they're usually not musicians (it's almost worse if they are, actually). Get on the horn, ask the right questions, and you'll do alright.

[Fred Story]

I totally agree with those who suggest multiple versions. I always zero in on the creative direction I'm given and/or temp music first. After I finish that track, I try to wipe the slate clean...look and listen with fresh eyes and ears...and just do what my instincts tell me. Then, if I have time, repeat the process. It makes the process more fun for me, and whether the agency takes my "alternate" versions or not, they always seem to appreciate the effort.

What's also happened is that the alternates are completely rejected as being just too "different" from the creative direction. But then a day or two later I get a call and a creative says something like, "You know, we put those alternate versions up against the spot in the edit suite - and we think you may be onto something." It's fun when that happens.

[Tim Abraham]

Originally Posted by Fred Story

What's also happened is that the alternates are completely rejected as being just too "different" from the creative direction. But then a day or two later I get a call and a creative says something like, "You know, we put those alternate versions up against the spot in the edit suite - and we think you may be onto something." It's fun when that happens.

And even when that doesn't happen, it's usually helpful to show them what doesn't work - then you don't have to go through as many options later.

[hankdrummer]

Originally Posted by Tim Abraham

If you want to make a living writing music for ads, it means that the most important part of your job is helping the ad agency figure out what music their own spot needs

of course, but it's also the ad agency's job to do a GOOD brief. one in which the composer can see the big picture CLEARLY, without having to try to decode it for hours.

one that doesn't give them 10 tracks sounding the same. what's the point ?

not all briefs are equal.

(btw i already make a living out of it)

[Fred Story]

Originally Posted by hankdrummer

of course, but it's also the ad agency's job to do a GOOD brief. one in which the composer can see the big picture CLEARLY, without having to try to decode it for hours.

one that doesn't give them 10 tracks sounding the same. what's the point ?

not all briefs are equal.

(btw i already make a living out of it)

SO true! Some years ago a rep who worked with us finally managed to get an appointment with a major ad agency. (He'd been trying for almost a year.) They had just rolled out a national ad campaign that was really well done and getting a lot of attention. When he complimented them on the work, they bragged that they had made the composer do 40 versions before approving the music.

I asked him not to follow up on that meeting.

[soundfx]

Originally Posted by Fred Story

When he complimented them on the work, they bragged that they had made the composer do 40 versions before approving the music.

A little OT, but this is so true and why I'm so happy I don't have to work with ad agencies anymore. Years ago, I was recording a voiceover for an agency. The tag was "Feed the Fun." Three words. We easily did 70+ takes of that one three word phrase. And of course, you know what happened...take number 2 was the winner.

[dan p]

Originally Posted by Tim Abraham

That's right, it's not their fault. If you want to make a living writing music for ads, it means that the most important part of your job is helping the ad agency figure out what music their own spot needs, just as the ad agency's job is to help their client understand their own product.

If you're complaining that the agencies give crappy briefs, you don't really understand the business. Of course they have a hard time talking musical language, they're usually not musicians (it's almost worse if they are, actually). Get on the horn, ask the right questions, and you'll do alright.

Absolutely.Get as much info as possible.These days there is so much music finding a temp track in a specific genre should be fairly easy to find and then audition some pieces for the client! You get alot further in a shorter period of time instead of trying to reinvent the wheel.



Dan P

[Fred Story]

Originally Posted by soundfx

A little OT, but this is so true and why I'm so happy I don't have to work with ad agencies anymore. Years ago, I was recording a voiceover for an agency. The tag was "Feed the Fun." Three words. We easily did 70+ takes of that one three word phrase. And of course, you know what happened...take number 2 was the winner.

Didn't want my little story to suggest that all ad agencies participate in such excesses. We still do a fair amount of agency work, and in one regard they're no different than any other client - we still have to earn their respect and trust. Fortunately, we've been doing it long enough that we've developed great relationships with most of our agency clients. Many of them now call us early in the process for our ideas.

Like it says on the FAQ page on our website. When should the composer become part of the process? Three alternatives: 1) Early. 2) Earlier. 3) As early as humanly possible.

[sonnykeyes]

Originally Posted by soundfx

A little OT, but this is so true and why I'm so happy I don't have to work with ad agencies anymore. Years ago, I was recording a voiceover for an agency. The tag was "Feed the Fun." Three words. We easily did 70+ takes of that one three word phrase. And of course, you know what happened...take number 2 was the winner.

To remain OT for a moment, I was present at a commercial radio session where the actor (a really fine stage actor) was directed seven ways from Sunday how to deliver the script, and though he perfectly executed the direction every time, the agency folks were ready to recast by take 50. When the engineer told him they were done, he politely asked if he could try it once the way he felt it should be read. The agency folks decided to indulge him, and that read, take 51 ended up being the final that went to air.

Now, those are the same people who are trying to write your music brief.

Sonny Keyes
Ricochet Audio
Toronto

[gypsyfingers]

Sorry for coming late to the party, but just ran across this thread, and thought it couldn't hurt to add my two cents.

I had done a couple of shoot outs and put all my effort into doing exactly what the agency had asked, but had always had the sense that I was making a mistake. When I spoke to a couple of folks who work for music houses, the response was to do two (or three or four) versions.

While I can see that there is a limit to this (especially for a couple hundred bucks worth of demo fee), I have had a *great* deal more success with this approach. I haven't yet landed a national spot, but suddenly I'm getting a lot more calls from the main agency I've been working for, and a lot of praise in the meanwhile.

Here's my question: why is it they spend what must be months and months shooting these hi-production value commercials and then give the music 24 or 48 hours turnaround??? Isn't that a little crazy?

[sonnykeyes]

Originally Posted by gypsyfingers

Here's my question: why is it they spend what must be months and months shooting these hi-production value commercials and then give the music 24 or 48 hours turnaround??? Isn't that a little crazy?

That's easy! The shooting schedule is delayed by weather, the edit takes extra-long because the creative team gets a new idea part way through, and this requires a different animation sequence in the middle which has to be rendered a few times before they're happy with it. Meanwhile, the airdate remains fixed. The only piece of the puzzle left with any flexibility is the audio!

Sonny Keyes
Ricochet Audio
Toronto

[taa4j6]

if they want quality music in 24 hours, all they have to do is BUY a commercial song. but considering it can be VERY expensive, and most of the time the music needs to be in sync with the ad ... they still need us.

i don't think you need days to make good music. it's either you have a good idea, or not.

we're not the only ones who are asked to work as fast as possible. at least we're working at home, in a relaxed environment, so we don't have to take cocaine

[gypsyfingers]

Good points, both of you.

Yes, that probably does explain it.

As for having good ideas or not, my problem isn't coming up with good ideas (hopefully); it's more the necessity of dropping absolutely everything on a dime in order to come in with not just what they're asking for, but also what I think they'll actually end up wanting to use!

So that, for example, just this last weekend I had to truck my mobile studio (laptop, Mbox, guitar, MIDI keyboard, microphone, cords, etc.) to the beach house...along with the two kids and all *their* gear

Luckily my wife was able to drop everything on her plate and deal with the childcare and I was able to get the videos in on time (and of course the DSL here didn't work and I had to upload a gig of audio/video with my freaking mobile phone!)

[taa4j6]

aaaaaah kids

can't wait to have some .................

[gypsyfingers]

They're awesome. But...not super conducive to getting work done, particularly when you work from home.