dial mix chain routing (pre fader comp)

[petessound@hotm]

hi posties,

what i really want is a post fader insert in protools, it seems impossible so how do you guys work round it?

i thought about feeding each channels into their own aux with C4s on but this seems a bit convoluted?

im running about 10 channels of dial, its all ADR.

at the moment all the channels are feeding into a single 5.0 aux with a comp on it

thoughts?

[Dallas Taylor]

+1

I've been asking for Post Fader Inserts for years

I usually route all of my Dialog to a single Aux Compressor (Dialog Bus). I push the aux if I don't want to hit the Compressor too hard... or pull it back if I want to hit it harder.

[Big Andy]

Do your pre dubs into a Compression/EQ aux track. There you have it, Post Fader insert! Pete, what you are considering is pretty stock and standard. You get far more control over your compression this way.

[petessound@hotm]

ok thanks guys,

im not convinced pre dubbing into one aux track is the norm. while i can see benefit of hitting a master dial comp on the last part of the chain, i dont really want to be doing much gain reduction there. simply because one loud character is going to pull the others down with it.

im sure ive switched comps post fader on analogue boards before?

i seen set ups where each dial track feeds its own aux with EQ, desser, comp on but this seems a little convoluted.

i though about inserting a trim plugin before the comp on the tracks and flipping the trim down onto the faders?

any other suggestions?

[Geert van den Berg]

Why would one character pull the others down? You got faders right? If one is louder you lower the fader going to the aux channel. This is a really common mix config...

And if one character is really more dynamic than other you can always use a little compression on its own track, together with some faderriding it'll work.

[Big Andy]

Originally Posted by petessound@hotm

ok thanks guys,

im not convinced pre dubbing into one aux track is the norm. while i can see benefit of hitting a master dial comp on the last part of the chain, i dont really want to be doing much gain reduction there. simply because one loud character is going to pull the others down with it.

im sure ive switched comps post fader on analogue boards before?

i seen set ups where each dial track feeds its own aux with EQ, desser, comp on but this seems a little convoluted.

i though about inserting a trim plugin before the comp on the tracks and flipping the trim down onto the faders?

any other suggestions?

Well, I don't know about anyone else but, I never said mix into a master aux. Though I do do that. You have an Aux for each track.

DX A -> DX A Aux--------> DX LCR OUTPUT AUX
DX B -> DX B Aux ---^


My typed examples always suck. But this is more like the routing you should be using. You can keep wishing that Pro Tools makes a Post Fader insert, but you won't get much work done in the mean time.

[danijel]

Originally Posted by petessound@hotm

i though about inserting a trim plugin before the comp on the tracks and flipping the trim down onto the faders?

I've found that trim automation is not as accurate as volume automation, so I use it very gently, to get the overall level of a line in place before the compressor, and then use volume for fine moves.

PS in the thread I linked to, I mention comp on DX buss, but I actually usually use a comp on every DX channel on most projects.

[petessound@hotm]

thanks guys,

im sure lots of people do simply mix into a 5.0 dial aux, as suggested earlier.

lets take the following example...

a lead character is shouting at a market, when he/she hits the comp and achieves the desired gain reduction then the same amount of reduction will happen to all the market sellers and other characters.

im know wishing for post fader inserts isn't going to make it happen im just interested in your work arounds. but by the sound of things most people here are happy to live without post fader comp

the typed chain looks like what i was thinking of setting up. how do you like to set up both the channel and aux on the actual board? next to each other? different layers?

[postprosound]

A real simple option would be to route each track output to it's own bus, which goes to the dialog stem, and the use a master fader with the desired plugs on that bus. It does take up busses, and perhaps some system resources, but it gives you a fader before plugs. YMMV

[Subsonic808]

I always have each dialog track routed to its own group with dedicated processing. That way I have pre and post-comp level control (the same goes for auxes), which makes it really easy to create perspectives. You push up the track, bring down the group and feed the reverb aux from the track to make it sound like that person is far away. For a close perspective, you do it the other way around: lower the track and bring up the group.
This does take up some resources and screen real estate, but you can't beat this technique.

[Etch-A-Sketch]

Originally Posted by petessound@hotm

lets take the following example...

a lead character is shouting at a market, when he/she hits the comp and achieves the desired gain reduction then the same amount of reduction will happen to all the market sellers and other characters.

But wouldn't the other sellers and secondary/background characters in the market be on a different predub? That's how I would have probably set it up anyway... if I have a loop group (or even just production bgs) in the ADR tracks or PFX tracks for the secondary/background characters I would be bussing those to a separate predub from the main character so his/her loud yell would only effect him/her. Also too, this makes it easier to do M&E type mixes where you want to keep all non-descript walla/chatter on but turn off just the lead characters' voices.

And just so I don't eat up a buss I usually put stuff like that on a master fader instead of an aux. Really no difference I guess, except you have to use one bus to get into the Aux and another bus to get out of the aux.

maybe that's why it seems like some people don't have a need for post fader inserts?? They just use a different routing scheme?

Another thing you could do is automate a compressor plugin on each track? Might seem like a little more work but by adjusting the threshold, output gain and track volume, it "could" get the same results, theoretically anyway. Although its a different way to work and it's probably not worth the effort since there will be so much automation to write.

[FullFrequency]

Hi there,

First post on here, so be gentle

I use a chain type system that I picked up of some top guys, and it's really helped me to keep everything tight and organised whilst trying to create a nicedly bedded in dialogue.

My main dialog tracks i use for faders and eq which is where most of the hard work gets done..... each track is then fed to it's own AUX/BUS with a compressor on it.... I'll also have a de-esser and another compressor i can put a band on like a C1. Each of these Aux tracks is fed to an effecting section, where all special effecting type actions are done with the dials, like a panner and a load of different plugs to createsomething different. They'll all sit in bypass unless needed. Finally all these will end up at the Dial Master bus (a 5.0 track). So if you had 10 dial tracks, you'd end up with 31 faders total. Hope that makes sense...

I find working like this is great if you have a desk that uses custom fader banks as you can jump around really easilly and is a lot nicer than sliding up and down.... although a chair with a good set of wheels is always a winner, just make sure you're not sat on a raised platform to avoid and accidents

N

[Janus]

My main dialog tracks i use for faders and eq which is where most of the hard work gets done..... each track is then fed to it's own AUX/BUS with a compressor on it.... I'll also have a de-esser and another compressor i can put a band on like a C1. Each of these Aux tracks is fed to an effecting section, where all special effecting type actions are done with the dials, like a panner and a load of different plugs to createsomething different. They'll all sit in bypass unless needed. Finally all these will end up at the Dial Master bus (a 5.0 track). So if you had 10 dial tracks, you'd end up with 31 faders total. Hope that makes sense...

Yeah, that sounds very right! May I add that only when the EQ and fading part is done, the compression (and/or de-essing) and limiting can come in? In other words: Don't pre-mix your dialoque with compression on it!
Well... that's all I wanted to add... cheers guys! Good thread!

[sailor]

Originally Posted by danijel

I've found that trim automation is not as accurate as volume automation, so I use it very gently, to get the overall level of a line in place before the compressor, and then use volume for fine moves.

PS in the thread I linked to, I mention comp on DX buss, but I actually usually use a comp on every DX channel on most projects.

Same setup here....to me, putting in an intermediate aux fader for every dialog track seems really inefficient. Trim into channel compressor with a final comp on the main dialog bus is a good way to get a combination of pre & post fader compression. Plus the Trim provides a convenient additional gain stage when ya need to bump up stuff recorded at really low level. I keep it in Safe mode so auto writes on my EQs don't affect my Trim adjustments -- which I do statically by editing the automation trace per clip as needed.

I don't do a lot of dynamic moves with the Trim plug -- mostly static settings -- so I haven't noticed any inaccuracy in playback.