Audio tweak for Canon 5D and 7D cameras

[Jules]

This guy has done some cool mods for these Cameras to make them shoot way better video audio quality...

I thought it might be of use to junior film makers / reporters out there.. that want to get it all done with one small camera / video

Magic Lantern Firmware Wiki

Check it out!

[philper]

I don't like how these cameras sound (and I work with them all the time), but I don't understand why Canon doesn't add simple metering and a way to manually set levels, even if only in a menu. All my jobs have been double system sound, which allows you to end up with audio that is as good as the picture, ie real 24 bit/48k from a professional audio recorder-WAY WAY better than what ANY video camera can record, but the point is well taken re onboard audio for beginners, low budg, ultra-hard-doco etc..

Philip Perkins

[Jules]

Originally Posted by philper

but I don't understand why Canon doesn't add simple metering and a way to manually set levels, even if only in a menu.

Philip Perkins

I think his hack bypasses internal level set (you use an ext mic pre) and provides clear metering for audio.

[philper]

Originally Posted by Jules

I think his hack bypasses internal level set (you use an ext mic pre) and provides clear metering for audio.

I applaud their creativity and the embarrassment this makes for Canon (like why can't they do this?), but so far none of my clients or the local rental houses are willing to void their warranties by trying these hacks.

Philip Perkins

[gmarinov]

Originally Posted by philper

I don't like how these cameras sound (and I work with them all the time), but I don't understand why Canon doesn't add simple metering and a way to manually set levels, even if only in a menu. All my jobs have been double system sound, which allows you to end up with audio that is as good as the picture, ie real 24 bit/48k from a professional audio recorder-WAY WAY better than what ANY video camera can record, but the point is well taken re onboard audio for beginners, low budg, ultra-hard-doco etc..
Philip Perkins

i reckon canon should keep doing what they do best and stick to recording crap sound along with the excellent picture. it's a good excuse to call that a guide track and have a sound person or at least separate audio gear to handle what's a whole dimension on its own (i.e. sound). call me silly......

[Uncle Bob]

It's a CAMERA and that means it's all about the PICTURE.

[Madhatter5182]

amen

NEXT!

[spicemix]

Originally Posted by Uncle Bob

It's a CAMERA and that means it's all about the PICTURE.

Two things are interesting:

1) In any AV project, audio is vastly more likely to suffer than video.

2) Judging by what is posted to this site, very few audio engineers can work a camera to save their lives.

You could speculate that 1) because no one trusts their ears, only their eyes and 2) a lot of these guys might not know how to work a mic either!

[cajonezzz]

Originally Posted by Jules

This guy has done some cool mods for these Cameras to make them shoot way better video audio quality...

I thought it might be of use to junior film makers / reporters out there.. that want to get it all done with one small camera / video

Magic Lantern Firmware Wiki

Check it out!

Hey Jules, i've been shooting 7d for a few months now... no news that i know of on the magic lantern for 7D. I HAVE had amazing luck doing off cm sound with a zoom h4n, and then lining up in FCP using "plural eyes". Freaking MAGICAL. works a charm.

[kk@jamsync.com]

Originally Posted by philper

I applaud their creativity and the embarrassment this makes for Canon (like why can't they do this?), but so far none of my clients or the local rental houses are willing to void their warranties by trying these hacks.

Philip Perkins

The website indicates that they're not supporting 2.0.4 firmware yet and most pro Canon 5D users have upgraded to that...it's a significant upgrade.

[kk@jamsync.com]

Originally Posted by philper

...I don't understand why Canon doesn't add... a way to manually set levels...
Philip Perkins

2.0.4 firmware adds this!

Also, there has been some experimentation w/ Magic Lantern and the new firmware with this comment on dvinfo.net:

"Regarding the audio, I've been doing some testing with 1.1.0-ML compared to 2.0.4 and have found that 1.1.0-ML has less noise than the new Canon code when used with an identical, strong external signal.

That said, the Canon code looks to have a flatter frequency response, and there is no DC offset. For whatever reason, 1.1.0-ML has a DC offset on the left channel (I've now seen this on two cameras), and a slight rolloff at high frequencies. The DC offset limits headroom and can cause premature clipping."

Which can be found here: Magic Lantern and Canon's 2.0.4 firmware at DVinfo.net

It's a thread that's well worth reading. DC offset, if true, makes the ML stuff a non-starter for me.

[Paul Russell]

The best results are obtained when you use a separate sound recording device. Something as simple as a Zoom is infinitely better than the Canon, even with the latest firmware.

[philper]

Originally Posted by kk@jamsync.com

2.0.4 firmware adds this!

Also, there has been some experimentation w/ Magic Lantern and the new firmware with this comment on dvinfo.net:

"Regarding the audio, I've been doing some testing with 1.1.0-ML compared to 2.0.4 and have found that 1.1.0-ML has less noise than the new Canon code when used with an identical, strong external signal.

That said, the Canon code looks to have a flatter frequency response, and there is no DC offset. For whatever reason, 1.1.0-ML has a DC offset on the left channel (I've now seen this on two cameras), and a slight rolloff at high frequencies. The DC offset limits headroom and can cause premature clipping."

Which can be found here: Magic Lantern and Canon's 2.0.4 firmware at DVinfo.net

It's a thread that's well worth reading. DC offset, if true, makes the ML stuff a non-starter for me.

That is very interesting--so Canon actually took some trouble w/ their code and made the camera sound better. I have no desire at all to record audio to a 5D, but also figure that they'll make me do it sooner or later, so good for this I guess. How did you measure the 5D DC offset? Did you have a "hacked" 5D to try before v 2.04 came out?

Hey KK--another 5D question--are you transcoding to PRoRes to edit that footage or are you cutting the h264 right off the cards?

Philip Perkins

[musikwerks]

Does anyone else see the irony in people talking about cameras "sounding" better?

Be realistic. It's a stills camera (sub $2,000) that happens to be able to shoot motion video. If you want all the connectivity and metering of a real video camera then buy one. You get what you pay for.

(and yes, I own a 7D).

[musikwerks]

Originally Posted by philper

are you transcoding to PRoRes to edit that footage or are you cutting the h264 right off the cards?

Philip Perkins

Phillip, Media Composer 5 will be able to access the h264 files directly from the card via AMA. Same with native R3D and final cut quicktimes. Released next month.

[JeromeOD]

crappy guide track audio on these cameras is to be encouraged! the re-evolution of sep sound is a terrific thing, and coming as it does with the invention of PluralEyes, we can soon wave goodbye to the infernal timecode syncing devices, genlocks and all their little wizards

[philper]

Originally Posted by musikwerks

Does anyone else see the irony in people talking about cameras "sounding" better?

Be realistic. It's a stills camera (sub $2,000) that happens to be able to shoot motion video. If you want all the connectivity and metering of a real video camera then buy one. You get what you pay for.

(and yes, I own a 7D).

I'm as realistic as the day is long. 34 years of production sound has taught me that if a producer can cut a corner and save some money, they'll consider it. I don't buy cameras, I record for/to/with them, I'm a sound guy. We spent many years recording audio on crappy video cameras--that was the standard and I always double-recorded as a backup and to give them options. Most did not take advantage of those better tracks. So far, w/ the 5D, they ARE using those better tracks, and that's been great. But sooner or later they will read a blog of some online philosopher/wannabe tech guru who'll tell them the audio on the camera is good enough, and that will become the spec of that gig. It's my job to be ready for that if it happens.

Philip Perkins

[musikwerks]

Phil, sorry if that post sounded like it was directed at you... it wasn't. I meant for producer's etc to be realistic about it.

[cajonezzz]

Anyone heard whether or not Canon will be doing a similar firmware update for the 7D? Or Magic lantern -- ?

I"Ve been using the Zoom H4n, but I'd like to be able to go with on cam sound for quick run n gun interviews.

c

[kk@jamsync.com]

Originally Posted by philper

That is very interesting--so Canon actually took some trouble w/ their code and made the camera sound better. I have no desire at all to record audio to a 5D, but also figure that they'll make me do it sooner or later, so good for this I guess. How did you measure the 5D DC offset? Did you have a "hacked" 5D to try before v 2.04 came out?

Hey KK--another 5D question--are you transcoding to PRoRes to edit that footage or are you cutting the h264 right off the cards?

Philip Perkins

I was just quoting the other guy about DC offset. I run dual system with Tascam HDP2 or Zoom (various). I am running 2.0.4 and I really like it now that I have my head wrapped around the fact that 30 is really 29.97 and 24 is really 23.976.

As for ProRes or h.264, it depends on the computer system and length of resulting video. With the Nehalem Octo, I can work with h.264 sometimes, but for MBPro, I'm usually going with ProRes.

[HoPMiX]

also cs5 will play h264 natively. Im sure apple will follow suit.
I own a 5d and 7d and audio is easy enough to get around. there are far more challenging things to over come. like pulling focus.
Movieslate for the iphone has been awesome for me for off camera audio.

[Jules]

[cajonezzz]

Originally Posted by Jules

really bumming me out that this is not available for 7d yet ( if ever)

[Paul Russell]

With firmware update 2.0.4 for the 5D the Magic Lantern firmware isn't necessary. Tramm is working on an update for it but it's not ready yet. This thread at DVinfo is where updates are announced.
Magic Lantern 0.1.6 release - Page 6 at DVinfo.net

[philper]

Originally Posted by Jules

Um....just because it has manually settable audio levels (viewable and settable only when you are NOT rolling) doesn't mean that the 5D does "pro" audio. I have done sync/head to head tests, and it does not.

Philip Perkins

[Paul Russell]

I agree. It's best to use an external recorder

[Jfriah]

Originally Posted by musikwerks

Does anyone else see the irony in people talking about cameras "sounding" better?

Be realistic. It's a stills camera (sub $2,000) that happens to be able to shoot motion video. If you want all the connectivity and metering of a real video camera then buy one. You get what you pay for. .

Amen to all that. STILL camera that has video. Oh you want to zoom or change focus? OHHHHH!


Same with "any external recorder sounds better than..."
--so much depends on things like MICROPHONES used and the person running the gear. But, please, yes, run dual-system when you shoot.

And, p.s. any number of people can slap a "pro audio" label on something and sell product. Not being able to adjust levels while actually in record? Puh-leez. (cough cough SONY minidisc recorders cough)

Philip also makes good points about producers wanting to save bucks. Yeah, take the money you'd save with such a video capture device and employ a capable audio person.

Or... maybe even a 'pro audio' person.


Jeff