upgrade path for post pro tools or nuendo?

[cananball]

Hey all<

Currently running cubase 4 with a presonus firepod and also protool 8 le with an m-box mini on a custom amd X2 3600 pc, win xpsp2, 2 gig ram. I mostly record music but am beginning to transition into the post world and am getting small jobs editing and mixing for cable.

I am looking to upgrade to accommodate omf and aaf imports more effectivley and cannot decide which way to go. Cubase can import omf but not aaf, pro tools cannot import either without the dv toolkit.

Should i upgrade to nuendo 4 for $900 or upgrade to the dv toolkit for $1200. i have a feeling i'll get more bang for my buck with nuendo, but at this point, perhaps migrating to pro tools for post would make integration with other users easier?

The interface i guess also matters, although i mix in the box, my firepod gives me much more flexibility than my M box mini, with 8 balanced i/o and spdif.

Can anybody here lend any advice? Thanks in advance.

[apple-q]

get dv-toolkit for 300$ on ebay.

Digidesign Pro Tools DV Toolkit 2 iLok License LE iLok - eBay (item 130359507650 end time Jan-26-10 11:26:34 PST)

[jahtao]

Originally Posted by apple-q

get dv-toolkit for 300$ on ebay.

Digidesign Pro Tools DV Toolkit 2 iLok License LE iLok - eBay (item 130359507650 end time Jan-26-10 11:26:34 PST)

NOOOOOO!!

From eBay:
"Again, it does NOT included ANY extra plugins such as DINR LE, TL Space Native, Digitranslator, X-Form etc."

[danijel]

Originally Posted by cananball

Should i upgrade to nuendo 4 for $900 or upgrade to the dv toolkit for $1200. i have a feeling i'll get more bang for my buck with nuendo, but at this point, perhaps migrating to pro tools for post would make integration with other users easier?

Watch out, Nuendo 5 beta is out. Also, look at cross-grade options from PT LE to Nuendo - it might turn out cheaper then Cubase -> Nuendo path.

Also, you might want to do nothing and ask everyone to provide OMFs.

[apple-q]

Originally Posted by jahtao

NOOOOOO!!

From eBay:
"Again, it does NOT included ANY extra plugins such as DINR LE, TL Space Native, Digitranslator, X-Form etc."

He was asking about OMF/AAF and what´s cheapest and what integrates best with the outside world. Hence my response.
With Nuendo you have to put in external translators to the calculation (EDL convert and what not) to interface safely. OMF/AAF in PT is pretty much a non issue when you have to talk to AVID/FCP. AAF with MXF media? No go with Nuendo for example.

[quadraphonics]

There are a few issues here though. 1st, running DV toolkit 2 will limit his upgrade path in terms of Pro Tools software. Also, that auction didn't include the DigiTranslator which would prevent him from opening OMFs.

Randall

Originally Posted by apple-q

He was asking about OMF/AAF and what´s cheapest and what integrates best with the outside world. Hence my response.
With Nuendo you have to put in external translators to the calculation (EDL convert and what not) to interface safely. OMF/AAF in PT is pretty much a non issue when you have to talk to AVID/FCP. AAF with MXF media? No go with Nuendo for example.

[apple-q]

Originally Posted by quadraphonics

There are a few issues here though. 1st, running DV toolkit 2 will limit his upgrade path in terms of Pro Tools software. Also, that auction didn't include the DigiTranslator which would prevent him from opening OMFs.

Randall

OK you are right. That auction was just an example. Try this one (just one out of several DT):

Digidesign DigiTranslator 2.0 - eBay (item 320477716802 end time Jan-25-10 14:15:18 PST)

It´s even cheaper (150$ starting). Complete no-brainer if you ask me. But maybe he prefers the 900$ for Nuendo plus additional Translator-tools plus the hassle to convert every time he needs to interface to the ProTools world ;-)

[philper]

Originally Posted by apple-q

OK you are right. That auction was just an example. Try this one (just one out of several DT):

Digidesign DigiTranslator 2.0 - eBay (item 320477716802 end time Jan-25-10 14:15:18 PST)

It´s even cheaper (150$ starting). Complete no-brainer if you ask me. But maybe he prefers the 900$ for Nuendo plus additional Translator-tools plus the hassle to convert every time he needs to interface to the ProTools world ;-)

It's not that big a deal, and ProConvert can deal w/ much flakier OMFs than PT can on its own.

Philip Perkins

[cananball]

Originally Posted by danijel

Watch out, Nuendo 5 beta is out. Also, look at cross-grade options from PT LE to Nuendo - it might turn out cheaper then Cubase -> Nuendo path.

Also, you might want to do nothing and ask everyone to provide OMFs.

i understand that new avids can no longer export omf, and that omf doesn't support hd frame rates, so it looks like omf is about to be extinct. any experience there?

i know alot of users LOVE protools but isnt nuendo a little more versatile than pt le?

if someone exports an aaf for protools, i wont be able to open it in nuendo withpout 3rd party conversion?

[ErikG]

Well I dont know, what has happened lately...

But on this project I have recieved both embedded and non embedded AAF files. All opened 100% ok in Nuendo, the levels from the avid was brought in as CLIP level, hurray!
It all opened nicely, but the embedded AAF audio files lost its original name during embedding or during extraction so as to be named only A1 A2 etc. All the clip names were ok, just that the file names were stuffed.

Personally I much prefer to gt the Avid levels as clip level than Automation, as I can quickly get an idea of how they envisioned the scene to sound. But wthout getting all that messy automation data on the tracks that needs cleaning or total removal.

I'll try to find out what version of Avid it was done in if antone is interested.

[apple-q]

[QUOTE=cananball;5017468]i understand that new avids can no longer export omf, and that omf doesn't support hd frame rates, so it looks like omf is about to be extinct. any experience there?
/QUOTE]

OMF is not supported when MXF audio-media is used. This is the case for all HD-projects (DNx). In this case OMF is greyed out and only AAF is available. Otherwise OMF is still available for normal AIFF and WAV media. But is doesn´t really make a difference.

[Subsonic808]

Originally Posted by ErikG

I'll try to find out what version of Avid it was done in if antone is interested.

I am!

[philper]

Originally Posted by cananball

i understand that new avids can no longer export omf, and that omf doesn't support hd frame rates, so it looks like omf is about to be extinct. any experience there?

i know alot of users LOVE protools but isnt nuendo a little more versatile than pt le?

?

Only for Avid users. And at least 50% of editorial is done on Final Cut anymore. It is very possible that Avid does not have the market control it had when it dictated the use of early (very buggy) OMF and would not cooperate with the (more sensible) standard everyone else had agreed on: AES31. So I don't think OMF is going away for a very long time just because Avid wants it to.

Philip Perkins

[cananball]

i have no experience with mxf audio. i did a google search and searched the boards, found some info, meta data, embedded timestamps, etc, but what does it really mean in the context of audio post?

Everything you read about it is very focused on the 50 possible standards that still don't interface between platforms, smpte this, based on aaf substandard that, and all this bs that seems hard to place without direct experience.

where might i run into it, and how is it important to what i do? Is audio imported as an mxf file, or an aaf with mxf audio embedded?

i read on a board today that pro tools cannot import mxf audio either. is this correct?

Also, i read on old posts that pro tools le has a dv toolkit installer with a 30 day trial. these posts were a few years old. i looked on my disk found the installer, installed it but it would not work. is the dv tool kit trial still available for pt 8 or am i missing something.

ken wilkinson

[apple-q]

ALL avid HD-projects use MXF-audio.When you use referenced AAF workflows you will need to be able to play back MXF-audio. ProTools supports direct playback of MXF-audio and reads all meta-data from such files.
Alternatively you can use the embedded workflow and transconvert at the cost of losing all original meta-data. Embedded OMF/AAF will strip the meta-data from you files so no scene/take/notes info.

[cananball]

Originally Posted by apple-q

He was asking about OMF/AAF and what´s cheapest and what integrates best with the outside world. Hence my response.
With Nuendo you have to put in external translators to the calculation (EDL convert and what not) to interface safely. OMF/AAF in PT is pretty much a non issue when you have to talk to AVID/FCP. AAF with MXF media? No go with Nuendo for example.

so basically if i want to be able to work with HD content from an avid, forget nuendo? That sucks. i am leaning towards nuendo because of its delay compensation.

if i go with nuendo would my best convert option be something like pro convert or should i buy digitranslator as a standalone?

the projects i have done have all been embedded omf. If i were working from a referenced aaf, i would receive an aaf file plus a folder of individual audio files?

[apple-q]

Originally Posted by cananball

so basically if i want to be able to work with HD content from an avid, forget nuendo? That sucks. i am leaning towards nuendo because of its delay compensation.

if i go with nuendo would my best convert option be something like pro convert or should i buy digitranslator as a standalone?

the projects i have done have all been embedded omf. If i were working from a referenced aaf, i would receive an aaf file plus a folder of individual audio files?

Like I said with Nuendo the embedded workflow would be your only option on an HD project. But I guess that´s what Nuendo use anyway most of the time.

And yes a referenced AAF/OMF will give you a small OMF/AAF file plus the audio in a seperate folder. Has the advantage that you don´t constantly adding audio you already have when the film is re-cut. And you don´t have to ship GBs every time. You copy the audio ONCE and then just send AAFs via email because they are very small.

This kind of workflow is almost impossible with Nuendo I heard unless you jump through the hoops of the third party converters every time.

But maybe this has changed.

[cananball]

i understand now, and i see that you answered it in you previous post. Thanks for reexplaining it.

[Geert van den Berg]

Originally Posted by cananball

i have no experience with mxf audio. i did a google search and searched the boards, found some info, meta data, embedded timestamps, etc, but what does it really mean in the context of audio post?

i read on a board today that pro tools cannot import mxf audio either. is this correct?

I want to clear up some things. First of all there is not such a thing as 'mxf audio'. MXF is just a container, much like Quicktime, only better.

Audio wrapped into an mxf is either AES or BWAV.

With DV toolkit Pro Tools can import audio from an Avid MXF, but not from the several other broadcast types. (currently the most used one is MXF D10/Sony e-vtr, which uses an IMX video codec and 8 interleaved AES audio tracks).

If you need to make mxf files the easiest way on the Mac is via Final Cut Pro and import and export plugins from mxf4mac. The importer works on almost every mxf type and their exporter is getting better with each update. I am currently using this.

If you're on a PC, I can recommend XF converter from OpenCube. Mind you, you'll still need a seperate video editting application to create something that XF converter can wrap.

[Geert van den Berg]

Originally Posted by cananball

i have a feeling i'll get more bang for my buck with nuendo, but at this point, perhaps migrating to pro tools for post would make integration with other users easier?

A. will you cooperate with video editors? Then you need OMF/AAF import/export.

B. will you cooperate with other audio editors, which might use PT?

If it's A and B, Pro Tools is the wiser choice.

If it's just A then you can use any DAW that supports AAF import/export and then Nuendo might be a better choice if you're more comfortable with Cubase than with Pro Tools LE.

You can also just buy digitranslator. It's a little cheaper than the DV toolkit, on the other hand TL space and X-form which are part of the Toolkit are quite cool.

[apple-q]

[QUOTE=Geert van den Berg;5025120]

I want to clear up some things. First of all there is not such a thing as 'mxf audio'. MXF is just a container, much like Quicktime, only better.

Audio wrapped into an mxf is either AES or BWAV.

True but it doesn´t change the fact that ProTools is the only DAW I know of that supports direct playback of AVIDs MXF audio-files (containers). Since this format is very specialized (unlike the "naked" BWAV) and almost none of the DAWs out there can play it back I think it is legit to call it MXF-audio. But I won´t insist ;-)

If you need to make mxf files the easiest way on the Mac is via Final Cut Pro and import and export plugins from mxf4mac. The importer works on almost every mxf type and their exporter is getting better with each update. I am currently using this.

If you're on a PC, I can recommend XF converter from OpenCube. Mind you, you'll still need a seperate video editting application to create something that XF converter can wrap.

Thanks for confirming that you have to trans-convert back and forth in oder to be able play back MXF in other applications (other than ProTools).

I wasn´t talking about "making" mxf files on the mac. What I meant was that so far referenced AAF with MXF media without lengthy conversion is only possible with ProTools.
Since the OP was asking about what would be better: To spend 900$ on Nuendo or go the PT-path, I was trying to name some ups and downs.

If you want to work in Nuendo I guess that´s what you need.

All I´m saying is that if you spend 150-200$ for a Digitranslator at least the compatibility-side of things is pretty much solved. When you use Nuendo you might want to think about what your main clients will send you and how much time you can afford to spend to interface to them.

Also when you are a freelancer and mix in many different places you should also budget for a mobile Nuendo rig with MADI cards to bring to the mix because at least here mixing stages that run nuendo are extremely rare. But maybe this is different in your area.

Of course this is a non-issue if you do everthing in the box in your own studio and never have to interface to the outside world.

Anyway, just a few cents to consider....

[ErikG]

There are a lot od good reasons to use PT, most of them relate to the fact that it has such a stong market penetration.
Also the MXF issue as well.

So I actually agree, If you really do a lot of Avid HD projects and interface a lot with other PT studios, PT might actually be the better choice. Even though I do prefer Nuendo for pretty much everything.

But Yes I do need to use a PT system (I have several so not a major issue for me) to open and save a MXF project. Then I can use ProConvert or AAF to go from PT to Nuendo.

SO to really have a fully operating Nuendo system beeing able to interface and work with other PT studios I'm afraid I would suggest getting a PT Micro with DV toolkit and SSL ProConvert. Then you can get out and in stuff to and from AVID/Digidesign easier.

[cananball]

Originally Posted by ErikG

There are a lot od good reasons to use PT, most of them relate to the fact that it has such a stong market penetration.
Also the MXF issue as well.

So I actually agree, If you really do a lot of Avid HD projects and interface a lot with other PT studios, PT might actually be the better choice. Even though I do prefer Nuendo for pretty much everything.

But Yes I do need to use a PT system (I have several so not a major issue for me) to open and save a MXF project. Then I can use ProConvert or AAF to go from PT to Nuendo.

SO to really have a fully operating Nuendo system beeing able to interface and work with other PT studios I'm afraid I would suggest getting a PT Micro with DV toolkit and SSL ProConvert. Then you can get out and in stuff to and from AVID/Digidesign easier.

i had a feeling having both pt dv tool kit and nuendo would be the best way.

is digitranslator AND pro convert the way to go or can one tools do everything?

pro tools is great but no delay compensation is enough to make me crazy.

[apple-q]

Originally Posted by cananball

i had a feeling having both pt dv tool kit and nuendo would be the best way.

is digitranslator AND pro convert the way to go or can one tools do everything?

please re-read the thread. I think this has been answered.

Originally Posted by cananball

pro tools is great but no delay compensation is enough to make me crazy.

Well, when you are talking about LE (LE=limited edition) yes. HD how ever has delay compensation. Do you want to mix or edit/track-lay? If you want to do the latter not having ADC is a non-issue.

[Kayo]

Nuendo... all the way.
forget Pro-Tools.

It's what I would have done, and Nuendo 5, looks killer!

KAyo

[cananball]

Originally Posted by apple-q

Well, when you are talking about LE (LE=limited edition) yes. HD how ever has delay compensation. Do you want to mix or edit/track-lay? If you want to do the latter not having ADC is a non-issue.

Right now the commercials i am working on are all inclusive, edit and mix. And yes I have LE 8. Anyway, i guess i just need to buy both.

by the way apple-q, where are you located, you mentioned not many nuendo mixer by you, just wondering where that is. thanks for all your advice

[neilwilkes]

Hey Ken.
ErikG has just about got the answer nailed for you.
Nuendo and ProConvert plus the additional DV Toolkit for the PTLE and you're covered.
Nuendo handles AAF/OMF/AES31 right out of the box, no need for addons there, and I can also attest to the efficacy of SSL's ProConvert - I would not be without it these days, plus you get the additional benefit of full compliance with almost every other app out there.

[charles maynes]

Just an opinion-

Check out who you need to please as far as workflow is concerned. If you were doing Film or TV work in LA or NY, it would be crazy to NOT use ProTools. If you do not have to worry about interfacing with others, or have to deliver PT elements as a part of your deliverables, you can use whatever you want.

If the second condition is true, use what makes the most sense to you- You are basically starting from scratch so other peoples preferences might not be that important.