Dialogue Editors - how to find sync sound when it's not included in the sequence?

[pdubber]

I'm doing a dialogue edit on a feature film. Whenever I cut dialogue, I like to be able to access the true sync sound for any particular shot even if the cutting room decided not to use it.

As you know, there could be bits of gold within that sync sound even if it is just a cutaway (footsteps, sniffles, movement, etc.). And often I just want to know WHY sync wasn't used (I may be able to fix the problem more elegantly than the cutting room could).

I've done quite a few dialogue edits but have never really found an easy way to get the information I need from the cutting room. Here is how I have got what I need in the past:

The assistant creates a sequence for each days shooting and syncs video and audio, then makes me an EDL. This gives me the relationship between audio TC and video TC for every shot. I then use the video EDL of the sequence to know what shot I am looking at and calculate what the corresponding audio TC needs to be.

Unfortunately, this solution is quite labour-intensive for the picture assistant and I am often met with resistance, disbelief, or downright refusal.

There has got to be a simpler way. Couldn't the assistant export some sort of ALE that would reference all the rushes and provide video TC and audio TC? Or is there a better way to do this altogether?

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

[ErikG]

In my experience its hard to get what you want from editors and their assistants...

So thats what we use the script report (dont know the proper eng word for it) and sound reports.

Or I just use Soundminer to search for the alts using the Pic EDL to see what was cut away. Yep it should be done better but rarely is...

[Lipflap]

Like you, I use the video EDL to find missing sync shots. It's really the only way that doesn't involve pulling out your hair. Personally, I never fail to get both video and audio EDLs; it's part of the spec sheet I send to the production before the gig begins. Every once in a while, I hear a few groans from the picture department, but they always come through. It's not that hard to generate an EDL as long as the production hasn't sold the Avid or so angered the editor and assistant that they want nothing to do with the film.

[pdubber]

Thanks Erik and John for your replies. John, I'm currently in the middle of reading your excellent book (when not too busy working).

I should clarify that I'm having no trouble finding the correct audio files for the missing sync shots. My trouble is getting an audio TC reference for that shot. It can be pretty hard to eyeball the sync when it's a few footsteps or some movement.

The video EDL gives me the shot and the video TC, but I still need audio TC. I can get audio EDLs with no problems, but they will only give me TC for the audio clips that are used in the sequence - not the ones that are missing, which is exactly what I am after.

Does that make sense, or am I confused?

[Lipflap]

Again, you're right. The EDL will get you the right shot, but not the sync (on DAWs that maintain source TC this will work, since you can just type in the TC as on a CMX, but you can't do this on PT).
I suggest you talk to the assistant picture editor BEFORE the film is fully edited and ask that - if at all reasonable - removed sync sound is put back into the timeline, maybe on a very obscure track so you know it's not really to be used. It's easier to do this in one fell swoop than to get back to the cutting room and do it one shot at a time.
It might take a bottle of whiskey or other bribe to pull this off, but if you can get this level of cooperation up front, your life will be easier.

[petessound@hotm]

can you use titan (Synchro Arts

i have some joy in past with their demo feeding in EDLs and selecting a source media folder and it was able to generate a PT session with all the original dial (all mics)

good luck

P.S phils book to amazing

[Lipflap]

Originally Posted by petessound@hotm

can you use titan (Synchro Arts

Titan indeed rules, but only if the EDLs can provide the information. In this case, the sync sound is missing from the timeline, and logically from the EDLs. Titan is unbeatable if you have, for example, a mono picture edit track and you need to conform all of the original field tracks. But in this case, I fear you're doomed to get the shots from the picture department or to figure out the shot with the video EDL and then sync the shot by ear.
Of course, if you're working on a tape-based single system project, the video EDL will also provide the audio sync TC.

[Jfriah]

You're getting picture eds and assistants to do WHAT now?!?!?!

Each day's shooting???? Is the assistant your son or daughter? Wow!

VERY important to get on good terms right away with the editing folks, so that, yes, sync sound is ALWAYS there (remember...they might not know - or care - that Final Cut at least, will allow many many many audio tracks and there is simply no excuse ---ok, one--- for not keeping the sync sound in and turning off the volume if they are intending not to use it).

TITAN 'can' work. Again--sometimes we audio editors need to know more about the pic editing software ins and outs (cough cough EDL generation cough cough time code visual burn cough) and gently make sure they are aware of how to do things. Because, like any software...if you go along just doing what you do and don't have a reason to learn X or know how to do Y because you just don't need to do it... you never figure it out.

Pic and Aud EDLS are very helpful. So is naming the edits correctly with reference to scene and take and sound roll!!!

Assistants have a pretty important job. Too bad a lot of them "just don't know..."

-Jeff

[Lipflap]

Originally Posted by Jfriah

Again--sometimes we audio editors need to know more about the pic editing software ins and outs (cough cough EDL generation cough cough time code visual burn cough) and gently make sure they are aware of how to do things. Because, like any software...if you go along just doing what you do and don't have a reason to learn X or know how to do Y because you just don't need to do it... you never figure it out.
-Jeff

I agree with Jeff that dialogue editors really ought to know the nuts and bolts of picture editing (I began my career as a film editor, so I have a certain bias). As dialogue editors, we are greatly affected by what precedes us: the blocking; the shoot; the film editing. At the very least we need to understand what is possible - and reasonable - for the picture department to provide us. This way, you will know how to walk the fine line between being conned and being a jerk. Besides, having a grasp on the process of picture editing makes our job oh so much more interesting.

[Jfriah]

Originally Posted by Lipflap

I agree with Jeff that dialogue editors really ought to know the nuts and bolts of picture editing ...you will know how to walk the fine line between being conned and being a jerk.

Darn! And I thought I'd already given my 'quote of the week' away to Gary a couple days ago...

Ain't that the truth... "you can't put a timecode burn on without running to tape first"

"sorry, but I'm a sound editor and I can tell you how to do that in about 5 steps if you'd like to know how!"

Jeff

[ggegan]

Back in the 70's when I was an assistant editor at the documentary department of CTV Television in Toronto, I had to lip sync about 10,000 feet of 16mm dailies that were shot in rural Italy without any clappers or voice slates. Occasionally the sound person would clap her hands in front of the camera at the beginning of the take, but that was a rare occurance. What made it really hard was that the subjects were toothless old peasants, so their lips were caved into their mouths, and since I didn't understand Italian anyway it was very daunting. I did manage to get it all synced up as far as anyone could tell, but I was definitely pulling my hair out. I went back to being a musician for a while after that.

[Jfriah]

I'd have gone back to rocking in a corner, whimpering, after that gig! There should be a 'horror stories' thread started. Fave stories, etc.

Like the time a co-worker erased an entire reel of a DIA mix in an oops moment. Normally, no big deal, just time to do it again. This particular production had the location tapes stolen from a car break in. Hello entire reel of ADR!