7.1 for Blu-Ray

[Rick Sanchez]

Anyone mixing 7.1 for Blu-Ray in ProTools?

I'm mixing some Blu-Ray promos and they want them in 7.1.
This is different than Theatrical 7.1 in that instead of having Lc/Rc as the two added tracks, it's Left Side/Right Side.

I just set up another stereo buss for the sides and hard assign anything I want to send there and add that to the normal 5.1 mix.

As far as downmixing, they are asking for 6.1, 5.1 and stereo.

Any interesting solutions or workarounds would be welcome.

I also assume that the sides are also added to the bass redirect in a bass managed system. Is this correct?

[quadraphonics]

Rick,

I have done a number of Blu-Ray 7.1 mixes.

First, There are two primary 7.1 Blu-Ray formats. One has 2 speakers at the side and the other has 2 speakers in the back (think Dolby-EX but with two speakers).

When mixing in the box. I set up a 7.1 bus and feed the Lss/Rss from the Lc/Rs in the Mix chain.

Folding down to 6.1 really depends on which format you(ie, your client) chose to mix in. The fold down to 5.1 is really pretty straight ahead.

If you have any questions, please feel free to contact me at work
(310)399-1928

Randall Smith

Originally Posted by Rick Sanchez

Anyone mixing 7.1 for Blu-Ray in ProTools?

I'm mixing some Blu-Ray promos and they want them in 7.1.
This is different than Theatrical 7.1 in that instead of having Lc/Rc as the two added tracks, it's Left Side/Right Side.

I just set up another stereo buss for the sides and hard assign anything I want to send there and add that to the normal 5.1 mix.

As far as downmixing, they are asking for 6.1, 5.1 and stereo.

Any interesting solutions or workarounds would be welcome.

I also assume that the sides are also added to the bass redirect in a bass managed system. Is this correct?

[Rick Sanchez]

Originally Posted by quadraphonics

Rick,

I have done a number of Blu-Ray 7.1 mixes.

First, There are two primary 7.1 Blu-Ray formats. One has 2 speakers at the side and the other has 2 speakers in the back (think Dolby-EX but with two speakers).

When mixing in the box. I set up a 7.1 bus and feed the Lss/Rss from the Lc/Rs in the Mix chain.

Folding down to 6.1 really depends on which format you(ie, your client) chose to mix in. The fold down to 5.1 is really pretty straight ahead.

If you have any questions, please feel free to contact me at work
(310)399-1928

Randall Smith

Thanks Randall...I'm just building my template now, but your input did clear some things up. Appreciate it and maybe I'll give a call next week sometime.

The Blu-Ray format my clients are asking for is with the 2 90 degree side surrounds and the 2 rear surrounds.

[Steven1145]

A bit off topic but I just noticed in the latest build of my euphonix System5 software that it now has pan laws for "HD" 7.1 formats like the BluRay one.

[neilwilkes]

There are a few ways to do the 7.1 setup - check out all the possibilities in the DTS-HD MAS encoder. Obviously the addition of 2 side channels is the common one, but you can also set up 5 across the front (SDDS style), or 2 additional rears, or even set up as height channels (although of course there may be trouble in consumerland with anything except the side additions)

BTW - if this is for BD, then DTS-HD MAS is the format you should deliver. It will allow you to set the downmix parameters for the 5.1 & 2.0 independantly of course, and to cap it all will also include the legacy or core stream.
This means that with a DTS Master Audio soundtrack, your end users will automatically end up with the highest quality their system can deliver with no need for any user setup.

As far as Bass Management is concerned, all mixing should still be done on full range monitors and checked with consumer bass management setups where possible. It's futile to try & second-guess how some of these cheaper consumer setups handle bass response.

[jayfrigo]

Originally Posted by Rick Sanchez

Thanks Randall...I'm just building my template now, but your input did clear some things up. Appreciate it and maybe I'll give a call next week sometime.

The Blu-Ray format my clients are asking for is with the 2 90 degree side surrounds and the 2 rear surrounds.

This is the way I see it most often for blu ray too. As you, no fancy tricks; I'm just adding an extra stereo bus for the sides. This way it's easy to go from 7.1 to 5.1 for the DVD fairly quickly, by just taking the side buss, changing it to the 5.1 bus (or 5.0), and panning it half way between front and rear on each side (or slightly behind halfway, a la 95 degrees). However, I hope pro tools adds the proper bussing in a future rev so that we can actually pan continuously left-front -> left side -> left rear.

[neilwilkes]

Originally Posted by jayfrigo

This is the way I see it most often for blu ray too. As you, no fancy tricks; I'm just adding an extra stereo bus for the sides. This way it's easy to go from 7.1 to 5.1 for the DVD fairly quickly, by just taking the side buss, changing it to the 5.1 bus (or 5.0), and panning it half way between front and rear on each side (or slightly behind halfway, a la 95 degrees). However, I hope pro tools adds the proper bussing in a future rev so that we can actually pan continuously left-front -> left side -> left rear.

Do you mean that PT cannot handle 7.1?
How strange - you would have thought it could do this.....
Adding a stereo buss for the sides is a definite fudge and eliminates the possibility of any dynamic panning.
Much, much better to have a true 7.1 buss.
Nuendo rocks - designed for multichannel, and handles thiseasily

[Rick Sanchez]

Originally Posted by neilwilkes

Do you mean that PT cannot handle 7.1?
How strange - you would have thought it could do this.....
Adding a stereo buss for the sides is a definite fudge and eliminates the possibility of any dynamic panning.
Much, much better to have a true 7.1 buss.
Nuendo rocks - designed for multichannel, and handles thiseasily

No, that's not what I mean..ProTools does have a true 7.1 bus and handles it very easily if you are mixing in the SDDS 7.1 format (L Lc C Rc R Ls Rs LFE).

The problem is that the primary Blu-Ray configuration is 7.1 [3/4.1] or (LCR Left Side Right Side and Ls Rs).

The Nuendo documentation that I've found is also not clear on this matter. They have 7.1 Cinema and 7.1 Music choices, but it does not say what either of them are and there really is no 7.1 "music" standard that I'm aware of. I assume taht 7.1 Cinema is the SDDS configuration.

Unfortunately, there are even more choices than the two I mentioned. There is 7.1 with LCR Overhead Ls Rs Rear Center and a couple of other oddball things.

[nathand]

Originally Posted by Rick Sanchez

No, that's not what I mean..ProTools does have a true 7.1 bus and handles it very easily if you are mixing in the SDDS 7.1 format (L Lc C Rc R Ls Rs LFE).

The problem is that the primary Blu-Ray configuration is 7.1 [3/4.1] or (LCR Left Side Right Side and Ls Rs).

The Nuendo documentation that I've found is also not clear on this matter. They have 7.1 Cinema and 7.1 Music choices, but it does not say what either of them are and there really is no 7.1 "music" standard that I'm aware of. I assume taht 7.1 Cinema is the SDDS configuration.

Unfortunately, there are even more choices than the two I mentioned. There is 7.1 with LCR Overhead Ls Rs Rear Center and a couple of other oddball things.

Why Unfortunately?

I saw/heard a demo of Fairlight's "3-D Panner". It was a a scene of a Space Shuttle launch. They had a top and bottom speaker being used in a 7.1 set-up. It was truly remarkable. I've never heard anything like it. When the Rocket went up off the screen the sound went UP with it.

Of course this can only be used in a purpose built installation and is totally worthless for any mass-market application but it was still amazing.

[sowattmusic]

I am currently setting up an ICON based studio.
Like people have said earlier 7.1 in Pro Tools, on the ICON Center section and X-Mon system is set up for additional front channels.

My understanding is that additional front channels are likely to die soon. Even more as we intend to be a TV and Blu-ray Mix and mastering studio.

So How can I adapt existing Pro tools LC and RC into Back surround channels. Can i just put a sticker over the center section of the Icon-Control with BL and BR over the existing LC and RC names!!??

I guess it wont work beacuse Pro Tools panning system won't work that way.

Am i left with creating Back Surround busses and hard patch those to the Monitor inputs for Back surround
Well i just found this that might solve my problem:
http://www.neyrinck.com/videos/vmon_presentation.mov

[Frank S.]

A few years ago I faced a similar situation. I had to deliver a 7.1 mix for an install at a museum. I did the same as you and just used a stereo aux bus for the extra rears and "panned" with faders. It can be done fairly easily, but I didn't have to worry about downmixes like you are having to do.

When you come up with your work flow I'd love to hear what you did. I'm not in the Pro Tools world, but it would be cool to learn what others are doing with this sort of issue.

-Frank

[neilwilkes]

Originally Posted by Rick Sanchez

The Nuendo documentation that I've found is also not clear on this matter. They have 7.1 Cinema and 7.1 Music choices, but it does not say what either of them are and there really is no 7.1 "music" standard that I'm aware of. I assume taht 7.1 Cinema is the SDDS configuration.

The Nuendo documentation is very clear on this one, Rick.
7.1 music = additional side channels (which is the de facto "standard" here)
7.1 cine = additional front channels like SDDS