Discovery Deliverables: Undipped?

[Jfriah]

Yeah, when people ask for undipped stems, my main take on it is "erase the volume automation dips" and print a new stem. (If I can, to save time, I'll run a separate master with different bus outputs, one regular and one undipped, when I'm doing my re-record)

As for it being a "dense" delivery requirement. I like that one.

Undipped music stem in this quick-and-dirty day 'n' age of mixing and remixing things I can see as being a benefit for language versioning.

(hello sidechain from the DIA master, cough cough...)

Undipped effects? I may have, in the past, sent regular stems and just labeled them as 'undipped' and may have, in the past, never heard back from QC.

But with dipped music and the use of sidechain DIA, that's where you have to be careful because when you take your DIA out of the equation... (and found out the hard way a few years ago when some silly plugins would keep the compression on big-time if it didn't see any sidechain input!)

And, yes, I also support the "take the hours to build a template" theory. I remember when the night crew would come on shift to run off deliverables and would sit around thinking things out and spending what seemed like way longer than show's running time to get to work. Then a few episodes later they'd be at the ping pong table, having already had the template designed, stems run off, and printed.



-Jeff

[Jfriah]

Originally Posted by Frank S.

... It gives them the flexibility to make changes as they need, when they need...without having to come back to you to do it.

Unfortunately it also gives some people the ability to change you work when they shouldn't touch it.

End Quote.
Unfortunately, we would LIKE clients to come back to us to do whatever else. This is why we shouldn't be giving out pro tools sessions (correct that---I have no problem giving sessions---I won't give AUDIO FILES) so someone can remix our mix.

But I suppose, as long as the bills are paid (and this is a general statement, not in any way directed at the networks discussed in this thread). It is just nice when they come back because they need things.

Jeff

[Frank S.]

Originally Posted by Jfriah

End Quote.
Unfortunately, we would LIKE clients to come back to us to do whatever else. This is why we shouldn't be giving out pro tools sessions (correct that---I have no problem giving sessions---I won't give AUDIO FILES) so someone can remix our mix.

But I suppose, as long as the bills are paid (and this is a general statement, not in any way directed at the networks discussed in this thread). It is just nice when they come back because they need things.

Jeff

Coming back is OF COURSE what we want...that is not what I meant.
I have had shows that went back for a video fix prior to air and the editor took it upon himself to load the splits in and "remix" the show! That I do NOT want.

[Jfriah]

Agreed!

[Dave12345]

Originally Posted by BIGBANGBUZZ

I don't have to worry about stems for my work, just undipped M+E's.
For my work I just create 2 M+E AUX tracks, one gets bussed to my FULL ENGLISH MIX, the other gets bussed to my International Sound mix.

I then just dip the M+E that is routed to the Full English Mix, I often just draw in the dips pulling the M+E down around 8 or 9db under the VO then return the automation to 0db when VO is finished.

hi guys, is 8 or 9db the norm for dipping M+E under dialog ? cheers for any help

[FullFrequency]

Originally Posted by Dave12345

hi guys, is 8 or 9db the norm for dipping M+E under dialog ? cheers for any help

Whatever sounds right.....

Completely depends on what's in the material you're dipping. High impact, loud music will need more of a dip than room tone, which will most likely not need any sort of dip.


FF

[jahtao]

dip it as much as you like mate. And feel free to wiggle it a bit once you're down there!

[FullFrequency]

Originally Posted by jahtao

dip it as much as you like mate. And feel free to wiggle it a bit once you're down there!

That's what she said....... ba dooom chaaaaaaaa

[paulo m]

Hi all,

really interesting thread. Contrary to the majority of people that contributed to this thread, I spent quite a lot of years recording foreign voiceovers and mixing it with foreign deliverables from Discovery, Nat Geo, BBC etc.
If you guys think it´s a lot of work to produce undipped stems, let me tell you that the real crap is, as a native of a foreign destination of such deliverables, to try to deal with a lot of mistakes on such mixes/stems.
In fact, through the years, I came across with a lot of messed up M&E mixes. Wrong channel assignments, phase problems, poor foley replacing background atmos during live interviews, sections with no sound, you name it! Undipped soundtracks in itself are obviously a pain in the ass to mix with a foreign VO with diferent lenght. You have to keep compensating for fade ins and outs doing exactly the opposite moves.
Now, when I do a doc that is intended to be sold abroad, I tend to think about all those crappy moments I spend correcting other people ´s mistakes, so I plan my post considering an undipped M&E version that not only retains my mix concept but also gives the people that will get it the most easy way.

[Dallas Taylor]

Originally Posted by paulo m

Hi all,

really interesting thread. Contrary to the majority of people that contributed to this thread, I spent quite a lot of years recording foreign voiceovers and mixing it with foreign deliverables from Discovery, Nat Geo, BBC etc.
If you guys think it´s a lot of work to produce undipped stems, let me tell you that the real crap is, as a native of a foreign destination of such deliverables, to try to deal with a lot of mistakes on such mixes/stems.
In fact, through the years, I came across with a lot of messed up M&E mixes. Wrong channel assignments, phase problems, poor foley replacing background atmos during live interviews, sections with no sound, you name it! Undipped soundtracks in itself are obviously a pain in the ass to mix with a foreign VO with diferent lenght. You have to keep compensating for fade ins and outs doing exactly the opposite moves.
Now, when I do a doc that is intended to be sold abroad, I tend to think about all those crappy moments I spend correcting other people ´s mistakes, so I plan my post considering an undipped M&E version that not only retains my mix concept but also gives the people that will get it the most easy way.

Amen.. I've been there brotha.

[Fajita]

me too. every day.

[philper]

Originally Posted by paulo m

Hi all,

really interesting thread. Contrary to the majority of people that contributed to this thread, I spent quite a lot of years recording foreign voiceovers and mixing it with foreign deliverables from Discovery, Nat Geo, BBC etc.
If you guys think it´s a lot of work to produce undipped stems, let me tell you that the real crap is, as a native of a foreign destination of such deliverables, to try to deal with a lot of mistakes on such mixes/stems.
In fact, through the years, I came across with a lot of messed up M&E mixes. Wrong channel assignments, phase problems, poor foley replacing background atmos during live interviews, sections with no sound, you name it! Undipped soundtracks in itself are obviously a pain in the ass to mix with a foreign VO with diferent lenght. You have to keep compensating for fade ins and outs doing exactly the opposite moves.
Now, when I do a doc that is intended to be sold abroad, I tend to think about all those crappy moments I spend correcting other people ´s mistakes, so I plan my post considering an undipped M&E version that not only retains my mix concept but also gives the people that will get it the most easy way.

Yeah, sure, feelin' your pain, but you need to aim your ire at the real causers of the problems: producers and networks who don't allocate enough time/money to do all those deliverable right, and keep making changes down right down to the deadlines....

Philip Perkins

[paulo m]

Yeah, sure, feelin' your pain, but you need to aim your ire at the real causers of the problems: producers and networks who don't allocate enough time/money to do all those deliverable right, and keep making changes down right down to the deadlines....

Oh yes, my criticism is not aimed at any of you, fellow colleagues, but indeed to the lack of understanding of certain producers and networks towards what it takes to do the job right.

The consequences of that, in a lot of cases, is that the efforts of those trying to give their best to achieve a good sound is just useless, as money is what it counts in the end. I often get really upset when I watch those docs in the cable channels here, as the sound quality in some cases is really nasty.Not to mention promos. In a way I don´t think that those people care too much about that, provided the money keeps coming in and the local studio community keeps working for a low fare. In the age of picture Hi def and multichannel sound what it seems to get aired is lousy compression schemes and massification without respect for signal integrity.

[stangroom]

Originally Posted by paulo m

Hi all,

really interesting thread. Contrary to the majority of people that contributed to this thread, I spent quite a lot of years recording foreign voiceovers and mixing it with foreign deliverables from Discovery, Nat Geo, BBC etc.
If you guys think it´s a lot of work to produce undipped stems, let me tell you that the real crap is, as a native of a foreign destination of such deliverables, to try to deal with a lot of mistakes on such mixes/stems.
In fact, through the years, I came across with a lot of messed up M&E mixes. Wrong channel assignments, phase problems, poor foley replacing background atmos during live interviews, sections with no sound, you name it! Undipped soundtracks in itself are obviously a pain in the ass to mix with a foreign VO with diferent lenght. You have to keep compensating for fade ins and outs doing exactly the opposite moves.
Now, when I do a doc that is intended to be sold abroad, I tend to think about all those crappy moments I spend correcting other people ´s mistakes, so I plan my post considering an undipped M&E version that not only retains my mix concept but also gives the people that will get it the most easy way.

I always try to do my best with the schedule and budget that's been given. When you do a review that ends at 7pm, and they need all of the audio deliverables by the next morning, and are already paying extremely little, you have to work with what you're given.

What's the most notorious problem you come across? Maybe we can start little by little and try making it a better experience for all.

chris.