The difference of mixes for DVD and MovieTheatre

[Brian Cares]

Hello again Postpro Forum


I am about to finish the mix for a DVD production.
Its some kind of "Rockumentary" of a famous electronic
music production. We had a very good screening yesterday
and the mix passed so far.

The production manager told me, they will be presenting the
film in a movie theater and are talking to some festivals.
So the mix is done for DVD. I am wondering how this will
translate into bigger rooms.

No Dolby or Sourround involved.
I mixed the dialogue level to -27 RMS. As there are live recordings
of big festivals included, i mixed these to smth around -20 RMS with peaks around -10.

I am considering to lower the dialogue level a little for the "big version"
and probably add some lowend for the impact of the electronic music.

Is there anything else i should think about?

[Henchman]

Originally Posted by Brian Cares

Hello again Postpro Forum


I am about to finish the mix for a DVD production.
Its some kind of "Rockumentary" of a famous electronic
music production. We had a very good screening yesterday
and the mix passed so far.

The production manager told me, they will be presenting the
film in a movie theater and are talking to some festivals.
So the mix is done for DVD. I am wondering how this will
translate into bigger rooms.

No Dolby or Sourround involved.
I mixed the dialogue level to -27 RMS. As there are live recordings
of big festivals included, i mixed these to smth around -20 RMS with peaks around -10.

I am considering to lower the dialogue level a little for the "big version"
and probably add some lowend for the impact of the electronic music.

Is there anything else i should think about?

It's irrelevant what level you mixed the dialog at in reference to your meter.
What's more important is what level was your monitoring calibrated at.

I suggest for the theatre mix, to calibrate your monitors at 85db, and see how ti plays.

What were your speakers calibrated at for the DVD mix?

[Brian Cares]

Well. My monitor system is just "semi-calibrated".
I setup a certain level which i thought was around 80 dBspl.
(No SPL meter here atm. And i am pretty good in guessing
levels. 9 out of 10 i guess correctly to 1 dB.)
I marked that level and use it as a reference.

I am using a switchable K-metering. On K12 the peaks hit
exactly 00 dB with Rms around 12 to 16.

So. No real reference level here i am afraid.

Is there any rule of thumb i can follow when making the
theatrical mix?

[pisser]

Originally Posted by Brian Cares

Is there any rule of thumb i can follow when making the
theatrical mix?

Calibrate your room!

[dr.sound]

Originally Posted by Brian Cares

Well. My monitor system is just "semi-calibrated".
I setup a certain level which i thought was around 80 dBspl.
(No SPL meter here atm. And i am pretty good in guessing
levels. 9 out of 10 i guess correctly to 1 dB.)
I marked that level and use it as a reference.

I am using a switchable K-metering. On K12 the peaks hit
exactly 00 dB with Rms around 12 to 16.

So. No real reference level here i am afraid.

Is there any rule of thumb i can follow when making the
theatrical mix?

Here is the rule of thumb....
NEW UPDATED Room Calibration for Film and TV Post - Digi User Conference

Read, Calibrate then Mix. If you are not sure, then take your mix to a Calibrated Room that Films are regularly Mixed in and listen to how it sounds.
Good luck.

[ggegan]

Marti's giving you very good advice. I'm actually kind of shocked that you got the job and did it without knowing this very rudimentary knowlege.

BTW, in small rooms with near-field and mid-field monitors I calibrate at 82 spl for feature projects. I won't final features in rooms that small, but I will sometimes do predubs and M&Es in small rooms if the budget is restricted. Also, you should probably mix to the x-curve.

[Henchman]

Brian, I understand you're a music guy.

But mixing using meters only as a guide, is not the way you want to go.
You HAVE to calibrate your speakers.
Mix at 79 for TV and 85 for theater.
If you don't check your mix at proper level for especially the theater, you stand the chance of either having the dialog rip the head of of the audience, or being unintelligble, because it's too quiet.

And you'll be surprised what ugly surprises can rear their ugly heads bu simply turning the overall mix up or down as a global move.

[ruy]

Originally Posted by ggegan

BTW, in small rooms with near-field and mid-field monitors I calibrate at 82 spl for feature projects. I won't final features in rooms that small, but I will sometimes do predubs and M&Es in small rooms if the budget is restricted. Also, you should probably mix to the x-curve.

+1 with the 82 spl. I've had much better results since i started using that level in my studio.

[Jfriah]

Also good here with the 82 dB ref.

And be careful with your surround levels. -3dB down vs 0 dB/equal to mains.
Especially in smaller rooms.

-Jeff

[Dumb-Ask]

My room is tiny so I have to sit 60cm away from my speakers, I've calibrated my room to 79 dB ref ( I mix independent films for festivals and docs)would you say this would be an appropriate level for such a small room? it would be nice to get my mixes to translate in medium size cinemas. P.S. I normally bring my mixes to my friends studio and found that my dialogue levels are very low. about (31 to33 dbfs rms) and I always need to boost them up about 3to 4 db.

[bizzle]

Originally Posted by Brian Cares

No Dolby or Sourround involved.

Are you to mean that you mixed this stereo?

I would strongly suggest a 5.1 mix for theatrical presentation. And I would suggest you get some help..

&e

[ruy]

Originally Posted by bizzle

Are you to mean that you mixed this stereo?

I would strongly suggest a 5.1 mix for theatrical presentation. And I would suggest you get some help..

&e

at least LCR

[diogo_c]

Originally Posted by Henchman

Brian, I understand you're a music guy.

But mixing using meters only as a guide, is not the way you want to go.
You HAVE to calibrate your speakers.

Hey, I'm a music guy and my speakers and room are calibrated.

That's something VERY important, and really - most music guys don't bother with that...

[ggegan]

Originally Posted by Dumb-Ask

My room is tiny so I have to sit 60cm away from my speakers, I've calibrated my room to 79 dB ref ( I mix independent films for festivals and docs)would you say this would be an appropriate level for such a small room? it would be nice to get my mixes to translate in medium size cinemas. P.S. I normally bring my mixes to my friends studio and found that my dialogue levels are very low. about (31 to33 dbfs rms) and I always need to boost them up about 3to 4 db.

If your dialogue levels are too low then you need to either adjust your ears or adjust your calibration levels to compensate.

Personally, I don't know how you can mix feature projects sitting that close to the speakers. My home studio has the speakers about 2 1/2 meters away from my listening position, but I would prefer it to be about 3 1/2 to 4 meters, even though the Sky System One speakers recommend 2-3 meters max. I have heard them in another studio at 4 meters and they sounded great, very theatrical. They can't reproduce the same upper volume levels, but in a small room 100dB feels like 105 anyway, so I don't care. Average mixing levels are well within the system's capability and it feels so much more representative of a larger dub stage when further away.

[pethenis]

Hi Gary,

I'm interested in the layout and treatment of your room. I have a small room as well, about 6x5 meters and have been sitting about 2 meters from my System One's. The theatermixes I did so far translate well.

Initially I calibrated the room to 82 dB, but it was loud. I took my premix to the dubstage, corrected the levels and recalibrated my own studio by ear (playing back the "corrected mix")

The premixes I did after that are fine levelwise, I just have to correct some peaks on the dubstage.

I could change the mix position in my studio by moving towards the back wall and create a listening distance of about 4 meters, But I'd be about a meter from the back wall, a potential problem? Futhermore I have been using my surrounds in a typical music setup (me sitting in the centre of a circle), they would have to go on the wall, but then they would also be close to the back corners...

It would give me the opportunity to install a projector and screen, I have been using a 42 inch plasma so far. But I'm worried about the noise and heat from the projector; I've build a room in a room, but no money to install a decent airco...

Kind regards, Peter

Originally Posted by ggegan

If your dialogue levels are too low then you need to either adjust your ears or adjust your calibration levels to compensate.

Personally, I don't know how you can mix feature projects sitting that close to the speakers. My home studio has the speakers about 2 1/2 meters away from my listening position, but I would prefer it to be about 3 1/2 to 4 meters, even though the Sky System One speakers recommend 2-3 meters max. I have heard them in another studio at 4 meters and they sounded great, very theatrical. They can't reproduce the same upper volume levels, but in a small room 100dB feels like 105 anyway, so I don't care. Average mixing levels are well within the system's capability and it feels so much more representative of a larger dub stage when further away.

[yazoo]

Hi guys!

Im mixing a show that is going to be released on dvd and broadcasted on TV.

When I started out mixing i went for 79 DBspl, this is the first time I mix for TV and has only mixed film before.

The problem I have is that I when I gain the DIAL tracks to a proper level the peaks
in the track overloads. How do you guys deal with this? do you keep the DIAL tracks low in level and put a limiter in the dial bus and gain to a proper level there?

And how do you approach a project that is going to both DVD and TV?

Mix in 85 DbSpl for the DVD mix and make a TV mix out of that version in 79 later?

regards
benny

[postprosound]

Originally Posted by ggegan

If your dialogue levels are too low then you need to either adjust your ears or adjust your calibration levels to compensate.

Personally, I don't know how you can mix feature projects sitting that close to the speakers. My home studio has the speakers about 2 1/2 meters away from my listening position, but I would prefer it to be about 3 1/2 to 4 meters, even though the Sky System One speakers recommend 2-3 meters max. I have heard them in another studio at 4 meters and they sounded great, very theatrical. They can't reproduce the same upper volume levels, but in a small room 100dB feels like 105 anyway, so I don't care. Average mixing levels are well within the system's capability and it feels so much more representative of a larger dub stage when further away.

Hey Gary, any pictures of your home studio?

[ggegan]

Originally Posted by postprosound

Hey Gary, any pictures of your home studio?

No pix, but it isn't particularly exceptional visually. I commandeered my son's bedroom when he went off to college. It's 12'x14' with a cathedral ceiling formed by a gabled roof. The odd shaped ceiling really helps the acoustics, plus a wide shallow closet at the back makes an excellent combination machine room and bass trap.

Actually, I just got out the measuring tape, and my listening position is only 2 meters from the speakers.

[Jfriah]

Originally Posted by pethenis

Initially I calibrated the room to 82 dB, but it was loud. I took my premix to the dubstage, corrected the levels and recalibrated my own studio by ear (playing back the "corrected mix")

Peter, that's great that you "recalibrated" 'by ear' but you really should beg borrow or 'acquire' an SPL meter so you know what you're hearing is what you're hearing.

-Jeff

[danijel]

Originally Posted by yazoo

Hi guys!
Im mixing a show that is going to be released on dvd and broadcasted on TV.
..........
Mix in 85 DbSpl for the DVD mix and make a TV mix out of that version in 79 later?

I suggest you don't change you calibration between these two mixes. Mix the DVD version with calibration that works for TV (eg. dialnorm -23, which could translate to roughly cal 75dB SPL in a bedroom or 79-81 dB SPL on a stage), and then limit everything to -10dBFS (considering you're in EBU country) for the TV version. That way you only have to really work once, and then do a "mastering" pass with the limiter on.

Originally Posted by yazoo

When I started out mixing i went for 79 DBspl, this is the first time I mix for TV and has only mixed film before.

Depending on the size of your mixing space, 79 could be too high for a TV mix.

Originally Posted by yazoo

The problem I have is that I when I gain the DIAL tracks to a proper level the peaks in the track overloads. How do you guys deal with this? do you keep the DIAL tracks low in level and put a limiter in the dial bus and gain to a proper level there?

Something's probably wrong. It isn't very common for dialogue to overload. Check the calibration sticky at the DUC again. If it really is a loud dialog (eg. several people screaming at once), you could try compressing each dial channel individually, or just destructively compressing clips/regions in those places.

[pethenis]

I have one, but have been to busy to check what level I'm mixing at. But it works!

Originally Posted by Jfriah

Peter, that's great that you "recalibrated" 'by ear' but you really should beg borrow or 'acquire' an SPL meter so you know what you're hearing is what you're hearing.

-Jeff

[ruy]

Originally Posted by pethenis

I have one, but have been to busy to check what level I'm mixing at. But it works!

if you check your levels and calibrate your room, you'll save time doing fixes and at leat have a higher probability that what you are mixing translates to other venues. otherwise, it's like climbing onstage to play guitar without making sure it is in tune...

[pethenis]

Originally Posted by ruy

if you check your levels and calibrate your room, you'll save time doing fixes and at leat have a higher probability that what you are mixing translates to other venues. otherwise, it's like climbing onstage to play guitar without making sure it is in tune...

I agree, but the room IS calibrated, and by calibrated I mean that the level of my playback corresponds with the dubstage where I final my mixes. I'm going to find out, but have no idea at the moment if I'm mixing at 82 or 80 dB, but does it matter? No suprises when I go to the dubstage, I only have to correct some peaks which are "bearable" in my studio, but because of the tinny character of the JBL's in the dubstage, stand out a bit in the theatre...

I'd like a little more distance to the speakers in my room, because I have the feeling I overEQ some things, because I'm so close to the speakers. I'm not very experienced, but I find mixing on the dubstage both more critical and at the same time more forgiving than mixing in my own studio (is this possible?)

But I'm so glad I haven't done any TV this last year, I can't stand the compression/limiting that TV requires... Some people are reeally good at it, with me it's the harder I try to get a nice but loud mix, the more I fail. I can do nice or loud, but not both...

[lerone]

For both, monitoring should be calibrated to K-20: 83db spl @ -20 dbfs. I believe in some European countries, its -18dbfs, but If I'm correct, thats fading out now. :0)

[bernhard]

In my career I did a lot of theatrical feature film mixes as well as "mastering" or "finishing" jobs on lower budget projects, mostly premixed or prepared in small rooms.
In my opinion, there is much more involved than just listening levels:

- different room acoustics:
no small room bass node problems
longer reverb times (with lower levels)
speaker placement behind the screen/speaker angles.
- different speaker characteristics (horn loaded systems)
- different surround calibration (-3db)
- the surrounds sound much more diffuse with 20 and more speakers involved)

- and last but not least:

- much larger picture size -

This does strongly affects the perception of sound.

So i think, although it´s possible to make a small room mix translate roughly to a theatre, you will hardly be able to use the full spectrum of theatrical sound possibilities when mixing in a small room.

Bernhard

www.DolbyMastering.com

[Henchman]

Originally Posted by pethenis

f I'm mixing at 82 or 80 dB, but does it matter?

Uuhm, yes, it does. actually. Especially with dialog.
You're wondering why you hove some peaks that are "bareable" in your studio, but not on the Dubstage?
Well, has nothing to do with the "tinny" Jbl's.
JBL's are a pretty standard speaker for theatres.
It sound sto me like, A: your speakers are too dull
B: your calibration is off.
And peaky dialog is where you'll hear that right away.

[charles maynes]

Originally Posted by diogo_c

Hey, I'm a music guy and my speakers and room are calibrated.

That's something VERY important, and really - most music guys don't bother with that...

In being "calibrated" I think Mark is thinking of SPL level. In music mixing there is not a uniform guideline on the SPL of zero db, in the film business there is.

85db for nominal zero (-20) for theatres and 79db (-20) for small rooms.

[pethenis]

Well, you may be right and have a lot of experience to back it up. But what I ment with peaky dialogue is when people are shouting I have to make a small dip in a couple of spots. I thought it had to do with the JBL's being more "barky" sounding than my PSI and Blues Sky speakers.

But because the levels transfer beautiful for the rest of the movie, I'm hesitant to calibrate to what it should be.

Originally Posted by Henchman

Uuhm, yes, it does. actually. Especially with dialog.
You're wondering why you hove some peaks that are "bareable" in your studio, but not on the Dubstage?
Well, has nothing to do with the "tinny" Jbl's.
JBL's are a pretty standard speaker for theatres.
It sound sto me like, A: your speakers are too dull
B: your calibration is off.
And peaky dialog is where you'll hear that right away.

[Henchman]

Originally Posted by pethenis

Well, you may be right and have a lot of experience to back it up. But what I ment with peaky dialogue is when people are shouting I have to make a small dip in a couple of spots. I thought it had to do with the JBL's being more "barky" sounding than my PSI and Blues Sky speakers.

But because the levels transfer beautiful for the rest of the movie, I'm hesitant to calibrate to what it should be.

It's EXACTLY those things that jump out when mixing in an improperly calibrated room.

But, don't take my word for it.

[Jfriah]

Originally Posted by pethenis

I have one, but have been to busy to check what level I'm mixing at. But it works!

Well, you're sayin' you're happy when you listen at a dub stage, so... that's all up to you.

What I'm sayin' is: if you think you're too busy now to check levels (you'd be surprised, probably, when you check to see if all your speakers are putting out the correct level of pink if it has been awhile since calibration)... think of how busy you might be if the (or 'a') project comes back at you for fixes.

Rule of thumb I always follow: day 1 of putting a mix together, make tea (or coffee if it is your thing), boot up your reference tone session, grab SPL meter, blast pink, tweak-or-relax. Mix.

And to the "82...80...does it matter" question? Yes. But if you're happy in your room translation, hey, go for it.

By the way, it is not uncommon to have to adjust volume or notch DIA when levels get loud. Could be YOUR ear is just tweaking to some frequencies, too. Personally, I have a strong reaction to 3.2-3.6 k squawks.

(shrug)

-Jeff