The difference of mixes for DVD and MovieTheatre

[kk@jamsync.com]

Originally Posted by ggegan

This is very true. I work on a lot of independent and mid budget studio features and many of them these days are really DVD releases that use a short theatrical release as little more than promotion for the home theater and foreign markets where they will make most of their money. That doesn't mean that some of them aren't excellent projects, quality film making doesn't guarantee a large theatrical audience. Anyway, one would think that the smart thing to do would be to mix primarily for the DVD version, since that is where most people will see the film, but the producers don't even want to hear about that, they would consider that suggestion an insult. They insist on proceeding as if the main market is the theatrical release, and then they have no money left to do a proper DVD mix. Go figure.

It's definitely a strange attitude. More ego than economics, for sure.

[Dumb-Ask]

Thank you so much for your help

[Sean L]

Originally Posted by kk@jamsync.com

The critical issue in small studios is the bottom end. It's nearly impossible to get right w/o dual subs and a sub/sat system. Even then, you really have to listen to your DVDs played in large theaters that are in good calibration (a lot of the Nashville ones ARE NOT) to hear if you're anywhere near the ballpark.

It was a real kick to hear one of my indie mixes played at a really good theater in Memphis. I had seen it at a festival in Gatlinburg where they played the thing through a big LCD monitor and computer speakers! Needless to say, I was pretty depressed about it until I finally heard it at a good theater. So many things can go wrong when things reach the outside world, that it almost diminishes calibration issues by comparison.

Then too, I know that many of the DVDs I've worked on and mixed in my matched-speaker setup will wind up being downmixed to stereo or played back with a teeny center speaker system where some guy just plugged in the cables and hoped for the best. You have to wonder how important these discussions really are.

Sounds like the crux of the matter...to many variables!!!!

[Jfriah]

Originally Posted by thierryd

When I look at the surround levels of some of the Dialnorm -31 DVDs with the Neyrinck DD plug-in, I often notice surround peak levels going to 0dBFS. If the mix was untouched (not always the case) during mastering and surrounds were lowered 3dB to compensate for the 3dB louder surrounds in hometheater setups, then the peak level would be -3dBFS.

Mix untouched...surrounds lowered 3dB to compensate...

Sorry, that seems contradictory. No? What surrounds lowered 3dB?

When one mixes with surround speakers turned 3dB down, one is still capable of sending 0dBfs levels to the surrounds (Gosh knows why one would WANT to!!!), it would just be reproduced in the mix room at 3dB below reference/mains. There's no saying the info in the surround channels would be -3dBfs.

But, this old argument about what to use to calibrate, unfortunately, is:
(horse)

Until there IS only one type of ---oh never mind...hahaha. Mix away, as you were.

[danijel]

Originally Posted by Jfriah

Mix untouched...surrounds lowered 3dB to compensate...

Sorry, that seems contradictory. No? What surrounds lowered 3dB?

When one mixes with surround speakers turned 3dB down, one is still capable of sending 0dBfs levels to the surrounds (Gosh knows why one would WANT to!!!), it would just be reproduced in the mix room at 3dB below reference/mains. There's no saying the info in the surround channels would be -3dBfs.

What he meant is that, if you don't touch a theatrical mix, but only print it to DVD, you'd have to lower the surrounds by 3dB because of the different relative reference level against the front speakers.
But Thierry, you're talking about -31 dialnorm mixes which ARE tweaked, so why would you expect that they don't touch the mix? They have 4dB more headroom in the front channels, and 7dB more in the rear, so if they're re-mixing, it's up to them to use the additional range.

[thierryd]

Danijel, it's true that the problem is we don't know if the mixes are tweaked or not. It's of course all theoretical and I will not change my mix habits for it :-)
It's strange that you are talking about 4 and 7 dB more headroom: what do you mean exactly? Mixing digitally, 0dBFS is the end of the scale, so where do you get this extra headroom?

Greetings,

Thierry

Originally Posted by danijel

What he meant is that, if you don't touch a theatrical mix, but only print it to DVD, you'd have to lower the surrounds by 3dB because of the different relative reference level against the front speakers.
But Thierry, you're talking about -31 dialnorm mixes which ARE tweaked, so why would you expect that they don't touch the mix? They have 4dB more headroom in the front channels, and 7dB more in the rear, so if they're re-mixing, it's up to them to use the additional range.

[danijel]

Originally Posted by thierryd

Danijel, it's true that the problem is we don't know if the mixes are tweaked or not. It's of course all theoretical and I will not change my mix habits for it :-)
It's strange that you are talking about 4 and 7 dB more headroom: what do you mean exactly? Mixing digitally, 0dBFS is the end of the scale, so where do you get this extra headroom?

Greetings,

Thierry

When theatrical printmasters are used directly for DVD (without remixing), they get to go with dialnorm -27 in the metadata. Meaning, 'imaginary average dialogue' is -27dBFS RMS. Now, DVD allows for dialnorm to be as low as -31, so if you mix the film 4dB lower, you get 4dB additional headroom over average dialogue. For the surrounds, add 3dB more, because the ITU surround monitoring guidelines call for equal calibration of all 5 channels. Thus, DVD as a medium allows for 4dB more headroom per front channel, and 7dB more per rear channel over theatrical printmaster (e.g. Dolby Digital). Who'd say DVD is superior to DD in that respect?

So, I was just implying that if you have a -31 DVD, it was tweaked for sure, and it's not strange that the surround peaks go as high as 0dBFS. But you are completely right (and it never occured to me before) that the DVDs which were copied directly from the printmaster (the -27 ones), aren't adjusted for the 3dB difference, and that we are hearing everything in the surrounds 3dB louder..... Good point!

[Enos]

Hi guys! I've been reading through the thread and thought I'd post a question. I do all my mixing in a medium sized dubbing suite. Here is a rough spec list:

-Mac Pro G5 Dual Core (not sure of processing power but its one of the larger processors)

-ProTools 8 HD3
-2x 192 I/O
-1x Sync I/O
-1x DigiPre

-D Control (32 faders)

-Meridian 5.1 surround monitoring

-Meridian DILA projector


I have the room generally calibrated at -85 dBSPL with the usual standard settings (-3dB in centre channel, etc..)

However, I am monitoring straight out of the ProTools rig into the amps and out to the monitors. What I mean is I am not monitoring through any type of Dolby encoder-decoder setup or anything. Do most dubbing stages monitor an encoded signal or not? Also, is it common to be mixing to the X curve and if so how is this handled?

Thanks! Interesting forums here

[Jfriah]

-3dB in centre channel is a standard calibration?


And yes, curve---usually applied via 1/3band EQ. I've heard of people doing it on a PT master fader, but don't know any personally.

Jeff

[Enos]

Thanks for correcting me there Jfriah! I must admit to not be an expert in this area and I am not the one calibrating the room I mix in.

So I have a question then. Is it not common to have the centre speaker slightly pushed back compared to the left and right speakers? If so, in the case of that not being the setup and all three speakers being parallel to each other, would it not make sense to drop the centre speaker a little bit?


Regarding the X Curve, so do most dubbing stages/suites have an outboard graphic EQ on the mains to implement the X curve? Would you say this is a must?

Also regarding monitoring an encoded signal,I am monitoring straight out of the ProTools rig into the amps and out to the monitors. What I mean is I am not monitoring through any type of Dolby encoder-decoder setup or anything. Do most dubbing stages monitor an encoded signal or not?