Standard Procedure for film dialogue treatment

[dangeorge6]

Hey all,

I'm beginning my career as a film sound designer, and I would appreciate some professional advice on how to treat production audio. Assuming the production audio was recorded fairly well, is it standard technique to "sweeten" dialogue using compressors, eqs, and such? What kind of processing do the pros use in post to make dialogue sound like hollywood? What are your favorite techniques?

If it's not too much more to ask, what kind of setups do pros use for ADR? Do they use large diaphram compressors into expensive pres like in music production or do they use the shotgun mics originally used? Any general suggestions for getting ADR dialogue to sound more in the room?

Thanks in advance...hopefully there's enough sound designer slutz.

Danny Leavitt
Northwestern University Class of '06

[jayfrigo]

Originally Posted by dangeorge6

I'm beginning my career as a film sound designer, and I would appreciate some professional advice on how to treat production audio. Assuming the production audio was recorded fairly well, is it standard technique to "sweeten" dialogue using compressors, eqs, and such? What kind of processing do the pros use in post to make dialogue sound like hollywood? What are your favorite techniques?

If it's not too much more to ask, what kind of setups do pros use for ADR? Do they use large diaphram compressors into expensive pres like in music production or do they use the shotgun mics originally used? Any general suggestions for getting ADR dialogue to sound more in the room?

Don't use big, fancy vocal mics for ADR; you'll never get it to match in. Use something like the Sennheiser 416, and don't get the talent right up on it either. Maybe a little above mouth level (aimed down slightly of course), and at least a foot away. This will start to mimic the mic and placement on set and make matching up easier.

As for production dialog editing and sweetening, you'll typically split out each main character to his/her own track(s), and split out any major perspective changes as well. Then cut any PFX (production effects - things like doors slamming, engines starting, and other major events that the effects people will probably be covering as well) out to a dedicated track, and also cut some fill to its own track to cover places where you have removed PFX, bridges in-between speakers, where there is ADR, or other obvisously problematic production noises that were removed These problem noise can be put on the PFX track in case the mixer needs access to them later. Hopefully the post super has made a note of major problems that need to be cut out because you don't want to decide yourself to be trashing things they'll need later.

For sweetening (typically on the dub stage, not in the edit suite), a cinema filter set like the old Urei 565 "little dipper" is often used for notching things like generator or camera noise. These days the LaFont unit is cleaner and more popular, though the Urei is still around and has its adherants. You'll often use a high pass and low pass filter (or band pass as the case may be) and perhaps a little console EQ for intelligibility and continuity as needed. Reverb or ambience is added if needed to simulate a space, or again, for continuity. Reverb/ambience is definitely used on ADR for matching. Some times compression is used, but not too often. If anything, a little bit of limiting for dialog that is all over the place is more likely, and more helpful. Lots of fader rides are more common and more effective than a bunch of compression. Noise reduction like Dolby Cat 43 or Cat 430 is also usually available for messy production dialog.

To complicate matters a little more, much or this is often done in pro tools now, though there isn't a good cinema filters plug-in that I'm aware of. It's not simply a set of parametrics or notches as cinema filters have a button that goes instantly from boost to cut so you can have it in boost to sweep and find the noise, then hit the button once and it's notched out. Sure, you can drag and sweep the boost/cut up and down in pro tools, but you get tired of that fast and after 15 hours on the stage you're pretty annoyed at the extra effort, your wrists hurting, and the cumlative time lost. Another cool thing in pro tools is NoNoise plug-ins and the external Cedar box and plug for noise reduction that is better than what something like a Cat 43 will give you.

Hope this helps, and good luck and happy editing to you!

[Bob Olhsson]

If at all possible, use the very same model mike for ADR that was used for production. That way you can cut seamlessly between them.

It's much better to use fader moves than compression because you can't take compression off and it's hard to know how much to use until you've got the entire final mix being played at it's final volume level against a full-sized picture. Eq. is used to match the sound so you can't hear the edits. Again the right overall eq. can only be determined in the final mix.

Matching volume and perspective are edit decisions while overall dynamic range and timbre are mix decisions. You don't want to waste edit time trying to second-guess mix decisions and you don't want to spend very expensive mixing time matching sounds that could have been done in editing.

[Berolzheimer]

You might start by not being so pretentious as to call yourself a sound designer, when what you mean is sound editor.

[juniorhifikit]

Originally Posted by jayfrigo

To complicate matters a little more, much or this is often done in pro tools now, though there isn't a good cinema filters plug-in that I'm aware of. It's not simply a set of parametrics or notches as cinema filters have a button that goes instantly from boost to cut so you can have it in boost to sweep and find the noise, then hit the button once and it's notched out.

Filterbank's bandpass does this.

[doug_hti]

Originally Posted by juniorhifikit

Filterbank's bandpass does this.

to add, EQ III, hold down shift and click

[jayfrigo]

Originally Posted by juniorhifikit

Filterbank's bandpass does this.

Cool. I was hoping somebody would have an example of a filter that worked this way.

[dangeorge6]

Originally Posted by Berolzheimer

You might start by not being so pretentious as to call yourself a sound designer, when what you mean is sound editor.

wow, there are some real assholes on this board.

Thanks to all that helped, I really appreciate it.

[Berolzheimer]

Originally Posted by dangeorge6

wow, there are some real assholes on this board.

Yes there are . There are also folks who have worked hard in this busines since before you were born who believe that highfalutin' titles like "Sound Designer" need to be earned. With the basic questions you asked (nothing against asking questions, BTW, it's a big part of what this forum is here for) you obviously aren't anywhere near being a sound designer.

Perhaps you need to know a bit about the history of that term and how film sound crews are usually structured to understand my annoyance. A typical crew consists of a supervising sound editor, several editors each for dialog, sound effects & Foley, and several assistants. On films that require a lot of original or unnatural sound, such as science fiction or supernatural movies, someone might be hired specifically to create those sounds. In the 70's Walter Murch & Ben Burrt, while working on Apocolypse Now & Star Wars, coined the term "Sound Designer" for that person. It has since been used to mean many other things, some supervising sound editors use it when they feel they've done more or have had a more creative approach than usual on a film, some just use it to sound cool. It's been thrown around a lot in recent years and has come to mean very little, unfortunately, and many of us who do actually design, edit and mix sound effects for movies now view it's use as a sign of pretentiousness.

[juniorhifikit]

Originally Posted by dangeorge6

wow, there are some real assholes on this board.

Thanks to all that helped, I really appreciate it.

Mmmm, young Jedi. Listen not with your ego. Much to be learned from the negative and positive mmm hmm. Yoda say, Berolzheimer not your enemy, no! tutt

[Tim Halligan]

Originally Posted by Berolzheimer

Yes there are . There are also folks who have worked hard in this busines since before you were born who believe that highfalutin' titles like "Sound Designer" need to be earned.

<snip>

It's been thrown around a lot in recent years and has come to mean very little, unfortunately, and many of us who do actually design, edit and mix sound effects for movies now view it's use as a sign of pretentiousness.

*Tim stands and applauds*

All of the excellent info provided by Berolzheimer can also be applied to TV drama.


Cheers,
Tim

Happy with the title "Sound Editor" and occasionally "Sound Mixer" - well when I'm happy with my work, anyway...

[dangeorge6]

I apologize to those i annoyed. I could never have guessed that I would have started such an uproar by asking advice. The truth of the matter is, I'm working on a student film here at school. I've had many sound classes, and I'm well aware of the history of the term sound designer. On this particular project, I was the only person working on post production sound. I created SFX, did ADR, edited, mixed, etc. I don't claim my work to be up to par with Walter Murch, but I did "design" many sounds along with the menial editing and mixing work. Just felt the need to make a final stand after being so condescended to.

[Berolzheimer]

Well, ya know, you just tripped over a pet peeve of mine. I'll forgive you.
How're things in Evanston? It's my hometown, I still love it there.

[juniorhifikit]

Originally Posted by dangeorge6

I apologize to those i annoyed. I could never have guessed that I would have started such an uproar by asking advice. The truth of the matter is, I'm working on a student film here at school. I've had many sound classes, and I'm well aware of the history of the term sound designer. On this particular project, I was the only person working on post production sound. I created SFX, did ADR, edited, mixed, etc. I don't claim my work to be up to par with Walter Murch, but I did "design" many sounds along with the menial editing and mixing work. Just felt the need to make a final stand after being so condescended to.

My point was:
1. You weren't condescended to
2. Valuable lessons aren't always pleasant
3. You just learned a LOT about the attitudes you will face in this highly coveted and competetive workplace
4. You learned that "sound designer" is a sensitive word in that industry, and by using it in certain circles without knowing how people feel about it can damage your reputation
5. A little humility in front of industry pro's will take you very far (not that you meant to be arrogant)


Evanston is a very nice town indeed. I hope Hecky's BBQ is still there. Studiomedia is a nice little studio there to check out.