interesting... I'm not so sure this is a good or a bd thing...

[georgia]

Current Listings

I just found this site and it makes me wonder where our business , and if fact, where are art is going and if its going down the toilet with a seriously hollywood flush.


cheers
geo

[pjplayer]

i guess in the end you'll just type in yer add and it'll syndicate to every studio in the world and before you can fall down an imaginary hole and realize something shocking you'll be bombarded with everyone's interpretation of "10 seconds or less of music for when a character is falling down an imaginary hole when he realizes something shocking".

what could be better than that?

[RScott]

I thought the "I require a powerful lightning crack" job was pretty funny. Quote for truth.

Seriously that guy's going to pay someone $40 to fish up a raw sound effect from their SFX library? Why doesn't he go buy a lightning crack? Or a bag of crack? Most sound effects libraries prohibit the selling of their effects as sound effects, so this is questionable on legal grounds.

I don't think 3 job listings qualifies as anything more threatening than Craig's list.

[dsteinwedel]

Here’s how it works...

• Step 1: Specify your project type
• Step 2: Define exactly what you are looking for
• Step 3: Choose a Price
• Step 4: Post
• Step 5: Choose the sound design that is right for you
• Step 6: Contact the sound designer to arrange payment and product transfer

Well... looks like they expect content providers to demo for every job. "Sure, let me post your film and IF you like it you can pay me for it."

Riiiiiiiiiight.

-d

[JSt0rm]

sounds like somebody had a bad idea and followed through with it.

[emf1138]

Really?? (as snidely sarcastic as possible)

[gmarinov]

A similar thing has been going on in the IT/programming industry for years now, but hasn't stopped seasoned professionals from finding work at reasonable prices?

Every form of art and craft is being devalued on the internet, so this is neither good/bad, nor news?

[Thomas W. Bethe]

Today much of what a professional audio engineer use to do can be done by anyone. or at least many people think so. I had a client recently that told me "I can do the work myself but I don't have all the fancy equipment you have so I guess I will have to pay you to do the work". This from a man who consistently clips all of his recordings and pans everything into the center.

It is not only the internet that has devalued the work we do it is the media and the salesmen at places like GC and the magazines devoted to the recording world with articles on how you can do your own mastering, post production, sound effect creation, etc. I was recently in our local GC. The salesmen was trying to sell a young gentlemen some software and hardware so he could start doing his own mastering and not have to "pay someone else to do it" He sold the gentlemen a dbx 1/3 octave equalizer, a Behinger compressor, and Sound Forge. I was standing next to the salesman and his prey and the salesman was telling the intended victim how in a couple of days "you can be better than Bob Ludwig" The salesman got some commission and the young person got a lot of stuff that is not suited to doing what he wants to do and will take it home, never crack the manual, and attempt to do the impossible but....it is his money and he will hopefully learn his lesson.

The other problem right now is that there are sooooooooooo many "recording schools" turning out thousands of graduates for non existent jobs. My email in box is full of resumes from hopeful candidates for jobs that do not exist here. I read them all and find it interesting that the only real jobs a lot of these people have had is working in a restaurant or retail sales yet when you talk to them they want to know about their benefit package, how many weeks vacation they get and how much over $40,000 a year they will be making being an audio engineer. When you try and enlighten them they get upset. "Well in school they told us that there were lots of good jobs that they were preparing us for and I could have my pick and that I should wait for someone to offer me a really good job before I agree to work for them". <I would like to know what fantasy world these schools are preparing their graduates for and how long the "professors" have been away from the audio/video/movie business that they don't have a clue as to what is currently going on in the profession????>

And your experience is ?????? and you have worked for ?????? doing ????? for how many years??????

I try and level with the people that come to interview an tell them that mixing your senior project is very nice and I am glad you got the opportunity to do it. Unfortunately it is not a real world project and that you were hung over the day you did it makes me doubt your professionalism. Thanks for sharing that you were hung over and that is why it does not sound as good as it could. Maybe you should have passed on the end of term party???the night before????

How it sounds is very important. What you can do for me is also important and how you handle not only a LARGE audio console but how you relate to clients is also important to me. Telling me that you want to do feature films is GREAT to hear, telling me that you think you can do this in a year makes me wonder what you smoked before the interview.

We are a mastering and post production studio and we don't have an SSL or NEVE console and we don't do multitrack recordings with Pro Tools. I want to hear your thoughts on what you did and why you did it but telling me that the mixer cost over a half million dollars or that you used a rack full of equipment that was worth over 100K is really not all that informative and we don't have that level of equipment here and most studios you are applying to will not have that level of equipment. This is reality not the fantasy world of the recording schools.

I just had a job opening for a Creative Director/Videographer. I had a lot of applicants but they were very short on demo reels and very long on "well my professor said my senior project in black and white with a Cinéma vérité approach to telling the story of a young man in love was very well done" OK so show me the beef. "Well I had a copy of it and something happened to it and now it won't play and there are no other copies" (safeties - backups????) or the one person who took a look at our equipment and said "gee I have never seen any of this equipment before, what does it all do?" at the same time asking me about our benefit package. These must be the people that answer the ads on Craigslist looking for someone to do a video shoot for $25.00 or editing a feature length video docu drama for $200.

When you start telling the young person that they may have to work some overtime and the job involves weekend work they start sweating and say "well I just assumed that I would be working "normal hours" (say 10 am to 4 pm M-TH) and that my nights and weekends would be free" or "gee I can't work weekends because I have a band and we rehearse all weekend long and that is the most important thing in my life right now". Well I hope you and your band mates do well in your chosen avocation and hope that the real world of working for a living doesn't interfere too much with the rehearsals for your band which is as you say "is the most important thing in the world". If you want to be an employee of a company you have to remember that the company has to make money before YOU can make money and if you are NOT there well maybe the company won't be making any money and you will be laid off and maybe then you can rehearse full time with your band.

It is a strange world out there. There is still lots of unemployment and lots of people are seeking jobs that are non existent or require the young person to actually work (amazing concept). I guess if they can't find the job they are looking for or if they can't find a job at all they will simply go back to the family home and live with mommy and daddy until things improve.

FWIW and YMMV

[ankely]

Thomas,

I taught at one of those schools. They are essentially, puppy mills.

I wrote a bit about it here:

ScrewMakerBlog: Schools

[marty lester]

Originally Posted by georgia

Current Listings

I just found this site and it makes me wonder where our business , and if fact, where are art is going and if its going down the toilet with a seriously hollywood flush.


cheers
geo

i'm out here in the "sticks", so that web site gave me a cold shiver. i already
have to deal with unrealistic requests for unrealistic money. i hope this
isn't reflective of a trend that de-values what we do.

or maybe i'm over-reacting.

hanging in there,
marty.

[ankely]

I'm sorry to see that the video/post audio side is seeing these things now.

I'm from the audio/music side and have seen this since day one. I left the studio thing in '95-'96, other than to help some friends studios here and there.

I had found that the clientele's expectations are generally quite unrealistic and delusional, i.e.: making Metallic's Black record in a four hour session. LOL.

Playing psychologist/psychiatrist more often than not had been too much for me. And the lousy to non-existent pay.

I feel bad for the clientele. And my former students.

Kudos to those who can stick it out.

[philper]

This is another misguided effort to commodify freelance people of varying experience levels and interest. These have come along with regularity through out the time I've been working in this business (34 yrs) --before the internet as well, and they never work except for the most low-budg simple jobs. Any producer with any experience at all realizes that having people that know how to do their jobs is the key to their own success, and that they will ultimately be held accountable by THEIR client for mistakes their hirees make. This doesn't mean that the work might be low-paying, but the producer is going to want a personal recommendation at least.

Philip Perkins

[hociman]

Originally Posted by Thomas W. Bethe

I was recently in our local GC. The salesmen was trying to sell a young gentlemen some software and hardware so he could start doing his own mastering and not have to "pay someone else to do it" He sold the gentlemen a dbx 1/3 octave equalizer, a Behinger compressor, and Sound Forge. I was standing next to the salesman and his prey and the salesman was telling the intended victim how in a couple of days "you can be better than Bob Ludwig" The salesman got some commission and the young person got a lot of stuff that is not suited to doing what he wants to do and will take it home, never crack the manual, and attempt to do the impossible but....it is his money and he will hopefully learn his lesson.

I bought something from GC once. It was an iLok. You should have seen the look of disdain on the clerk's face when I told him I needed an iLok. He kept giving me that look until I walked out. I'm sorry if you only made $0.40 on a $40 item, but I know what I'm doing, and you don't. It's as if the only training they have ever had is to identify suckers and, well, sucker them into buying equipment.

The other problem right now is that there are sooooooooooo many "recording schools" turning out thousands of graduates for non existent jobs.

I see their ads in the subway. Sigh.

My email in box is full of resumes from hopeful candidates for jobs that do not exist here. I read them all and find it interesting that the only real jobs a lot of these people have had is working in a restaurant or retail sales yet when you talk to them they want to know about their benefit package, how many weeks of vacation they get and how much over $40,000 a year they will be making being an audio engineer. When you try and enlighten them they get upset. "Well in school they told us that there were lots of good jobs that they were preparing us for and I could have my pick and that I should wait for someone to offer me a really good job before I agree to work for them".

I started below that, and eventually surpassed it.

And your experience is ??????

I maintained all the Pro Tools systems at the school.

and you have worked for ??????

I interned at two (2) studios.

doing ?????

Whatever they asked, whenever they asked.

for how many years??????

The equivalent of a year.

I try and level with them an tell them that mixing your senior project is very nice and I am glad you got the opportunity to do it. Unfortunately it is not a real world project and that you were hung over the day you did it makes me doubt your professionalism.

I wasn't hung over.

How it sounds is very important. What you can do for me is also important and how you handle not only a LARGE audio console but how you relate to clients is also important to me. Telling me that you want to do feature films is GREAT to hear, telling me that you think you can do this in a year makes me wonder what you smoked before the interview.

I didn't tell them that, and I didn't smoke anything either.

We are a mastering and post production studio and we don't have an SSL or NEVE console and we don't do multitrack recordings with Pro Tools.

I knew that coming in.

I want to hear your thoughts on what you did and why you did it but telling me that the mixer cost over a half million dollars or that you used a rack full of equipment that was worth over 100K is really not all that informative and we don't have that level of equipment here and most studios you are applying to will not have that level of equipment.

This is where my education was really good. We had what most studios had, meaning we did not have an SSL, or a Neve, or a rack with $100k of processing.

I just had a job opening for a Creative Director/Videographer. I had a lot of applicants but they were very short on demo reels and very long on "well my professor said my senior project in black and white with a Cinéma vérité approach to telling the story of a young man in love was very well done" OK so show me the beef. "Well I had a copy of it and something happened to it and now it won't play and there are no other copies" (safeties backups????)

I presume the interview ended at that moment?

or the one person who took a look at our equipment and said "gee I have never seen any of this equipment before, what does it all do?" at the same time asking me about our benefit package.

Another interview stopping moment?

These must be the people that answer the ads on Craigslist looking for someone to do a video shoot for $25.00 or editing a feature length video docu drama for $200.

Could be.

When you start telling the young person that they may have to work some overtime and the job involves weekend work they start sweating and say "well I just assumed that I would be working "normal hours" and that my nights and weekends would be free"

I just worked 11 hours yesterday.

As you can read, I can sympathize.

[kk@jamsync.com]

Originally Posted by ankely

Thomas,

I taught at one of those schools. They are essentially, puppy mills.

I wrote a bit about it here:

ScrewMakerBlog: Schools

Judging from the emails I get, most of them are majoring in overblown self-esteem.

[Thomas W. Bethe]

Originally Posted by kk@jamsync.com

Judging from the emails I get, most of them are majoring in overblown self-esteem.

One of the students I had apply for a job here told me that at his school they spent a lot of time working on their resumes and were told to make themselves as attractive as possible to a potential employer even if everything that that said was not 100% true since much of it could not be verified anyway.

This same student told me that he could align a tape deck so I wheeled out our MTR-10 deck, got him a test tape and the necessary test equipment to do the alignment and told him to go at it. I also gave him the manual. He started sweating and then said "well I never really did the alignment of a tape deck but I watched the instructor do it"

Then he told me that he had done a complete mix down for his senior project but when questioned more he admitted that he did not do the original recording of the artist but that this was a "standard" session that everyone did and that it had been done so many times that people started keeping notes on what the instructor liked and did not like and it was available to anyone who wanted to see it. So basically the mix down was something that had been done hundreds of times before and if the student did what the instructor liked he got a passing grade.

I know recording schools need to attract students if they are going to stay in business but some of what they are telling students about the jobs prospect and how much knowledge they are imparting to them needs a reality check.

A agree that many of these audio school graduates seemed to have an over inflated opinion of what they are worth and what they know. Maybe the school teaches these "traits" or maybe it is just the idea that they have graduated from a 6 week to 2 year audio school and have been granted the title of "audio engineer" that makes them think they know more than they do.

[Jfriah]

[QUOTE=Thomas W. Bethe;
This same student told me that he could align a tape deck so I wheeled out our MTR-10 deck, got him a test tape and the necessary test equipment to do the alignment and told him to go at it. I also gave him the manual. He started sweating and then said "well I never really did the alignment of a tape deck but I watched the instructor do it" [/QUOTE]

Haha, these days if someone came in saying they could align a tape deck, I'd wheel one of ours out, too, and say: "Great! Can you remind me how to do it? I haven't done that in 10 years! And by the way, why the heck are they teaching you that? What's your ProTools skillset?"

(chuckle).

[Aux13]

Originally Posted by Thomas W. Bethe

The other problem right now is that there are sooooooooooo many "recording schools" turning out thousands of graduates for non existent jobs. My email in box is full of resumes from hopeful candidates for jobs that do not exist here. I read them all and find it interesting that the only real jobs a lot of these people have had is working in a restaurant or retail sales yet when you talk to them they want to know about their benefit package, how many weeks vacation they get and how much over $40,000 a year they will be making being an audio engineer. When you try and enlighten them they get upset. "Well in school they told us that there were lots of good jobs that they were preparing us for and I could have my pick and that I should wait for someone to offer me a really good job before I agree to work for them". <I would like to know what fantasy world these schools are preparing their graduates for and how long the "professors" have been away from the audio/video/movie business that they don't have a clue as to what is currently going on in the profession????>

+1

[pbell]

Wow, I can't believe people are sending out resumes/saying stuff like that in interviews. I'm still rather new to the business, but I like to think I'm more level headed than these guys applying for jobs. I'm hoping that some of these guys are applying for the same jobs I am, I might shine just a little bit brighter (fingers crossed)!

Maybe I'm way off base here but it seems like an art form is being turned into something completely trivial and a complete after thought. I just got told by a producer that they are going to do the sound themselves because they just don't have the time for me to do it.

Thank Goodness for those out there who still value what it is that we do.

[Jfriah]

Originally Posted by pbell

...it seems like an art form is being turned into something completely trivial and a complete after thought. I just got told by a producer that they are going to do the sound themselves because they just don't have the time for me to do it.

Paul wins my "quote of the week" and it is only Monday.

Producers will do the sound work themselves because, in the end, it will fit their budgets. Hey, knock yourself out. Have at 'er. Bone up on Final Cut Studio as well.

-Jeff

[kdm]

Originally Posted by pbell

Maybe I'm way off base here but it seems like an art form is being turned into something completely trivial and a complete after thought.

Not even a nano-meter off base. This is, imho, exactly what is going on. Not just in post audio but music/composing (and general recording) as well.

But, the lack of production values, wise budgeting, and expertise shows at many levels. There are no shortcuts to success, but the path to failure is wide open.

[Jfriah]

And to those who wish to take that path, I say here's $2.00 for the bus fare. As the whole thing is a "bit slow these days," if they do a project or two and have to fix their own audio problems and put out sub-par stuff, well...you know where to find us again on your next one.

But, it can also be argued: if they do it all and nobody is the wiser on the consumer end of things (face it: certain projects of a certain budget are going to not be seen by wide, discerning audiences)... then "well hey I was right so I'll just keep doing it myself! (until I realize that it takes way more time away from my own life and family and other tasks as a producer, etc.)"

-Jeff

[georgia]

ah, Final Cut sound editing... the IPOD of POST. ....sigh.




cheers
geo

[duvalle]

Originally Posted by Thomas W. Bethe

"Well in school they told us that there were lots of good jobs that they were preparing us for and I could have my pick and that I should wait for someone to offer me a really good job before I agree to work for them". <I would like to know what fantasy world these schools are preparing their graduates for and how long the "professors" have been away from the audio/video/movie business that they don't have a clue as to what is currently going on in the profession????>

[Thomas W. Bethe]

Originally Posted by georgia

ah, Final Cut sound editing... the IPOD of POST. ....sigh.




cheers
geo

Too too funny but very true. Why does Apple make it so hard to do simple audio editing? We also use Vegas and it is a very nice video and AUDIO editor. I give up....

[dark]

You can do it yourself works for building a shelf or remodoling a room, but if you are tearing out bearing walls and adding room additions better call someone who knows what they are doing or good luck selling your house.. Sorry analogy but you know what I mean.

[Jfriah]

Originally Posted by georgia

ah, Final Cut sound editing... the IPOD of POST. ....sigh.

Gosh, and I just awarded the 'quote of the week' to someone on a Monday yesterday! Good one, Georgia; how unfortunately true!

Originally Posted by Thomas W. Bethe

Too too funny but very true. Why does Apple make it so hard to do simple audio editing? We also use Vegas and it is a very nice video and AUDIO editor. I give up....

Hahahaha...APPLE is helping keep us in jobs (for the time being)! Haha.

(constantly trying to do simple Pro Tools commands in Final Cut [I love the fact they have changed from 'Pro' to 'Studio' now...I used to never use the P word when referring to Final Cut] and constantly resulting in 'Gaaahhh!')

-Jeff

[Neps]

Georia, that was the funniest and truest quote I've heard all year.. It even beat my '..it's not a Fender, even if your Strap says it..' (someone was trying to sell a Squier as a Fender.)

I did the recording school thing, and it was a bit of a waste. (I complained in another thread about this). What irks me most though is that most of the people who come out from these schools are very ill informed about 'real world' situations. When I started I was doing 18hr days for 3 months straight, 7 days a week, and it was great!
I love my free time but, you pull out all the stops to get the job done.. And sure, we all moan about the hours sometimes, but you know that when you're done, it's going to RAWK!

Producers skipping AudioPost is quite common here in SA. It just makes me smile, cause I get a lot of 'repeat' clients, because they wanted to do it themselves, and then I have to save it. Now some of them come to me straight. Even my housemate (whose a video editor) told me that he does the mixing for a lot of their corporate clients. I listened, told him he should let someone else do it.. he was not happy. I tried to give him pointers, but when a guy doesn't even know what a compressor is, or what the Q on anEQ does, you can't help much.

[Jfriah]

Sad to say, but the truth hurts, right? Let them do it, don't assist them unless they're paying you for your time and/or opinions/tips, and... let them fail.

Trying to 'save' a project someone else has messed up is always fun, isn't it? "you know, it would have been so much better if..."

[pbell]

Last week I was at a film industry function in Winnipeg and I got introduced to a gaffer. His first line to me "Who goes to listen to a movie!". Asshole! All I wanted to do was knock him out, but sadly I was there to kiss as much butt as possible to bring in some more work.

Had I been witty my response should have been "Yea, who does care?! Silent Films are sooooo popular right now."

[Kuba_Pietrzak]

A friend of mine, who is production sound mixer told me one day, that he had a "nice talk" with a producer shouting: "if you had done your job right, I wouldn't have to call sound studio!!!" (... and mix everything in Avid/FCP/whatever)...

regards,
Kuba