interesting... I'm not so sure this is a good or a bd thing...

[gmarinov]

Originally Posted by pbell

Last week I was at a film industry function in Winnipeg and I got introduced to a gaffer. His first line to me "Who goes to listen to a movie!". Asshole!

but that's the whole point, isn't it? more often than not sound has to be unnoticeable and do a million things the viewer doesn't realise, but all in support of the story. i find there's a very powerful argument in that...

[Jfriah]

Originally Posted by pbell

Last week I was at a film industry function in Winnipeg and I got introduced to a gaffer. His first line to me "Who goes to listen to a movie!". Asshole! All I wanted to do was knock him out, but sadly I was there to kiss as much butt as possible to bring in some more work.

Had I been witty my response should have been "Yea, who does care?! Silent Films are sooooo popular right now."

(edited)

It is a 50-50 split no matter who wants to argue which way. Sound and vision. You don't have both, you don't have a film. I almost got a little more vehement here but I'll withhold further comment.



-Jeff

KUBA--- you mean the producer was yelling that at the location mixer, correct?

GEORGI--- yes, we are the 'unsung heroes' working behind the scenes all in support of the story. But take us away and what are you left with? Moving images and pretty pictures.


p.s. I once worked on a set where the gaffer cut his lights so I wasn't casting a boom shadow rather than have me move. That's right. Read it again.

[pbell]

Originally Posted by gmarinov

but that's the whole point, isn't it? more often than not sound has to be unnoticeable and do a million things the viewer doesn't realise, but all in support of the story. i find there's a very powerful argument in that...

If he meant it like that sure, but his tone was along the lines of "Who needs you, youre JUST a sound guy, we don't really need people like you"

Man, I think this turned into another griping thread...

[Uncle Bob]

Originally Posted by pbell

"Who goes to listen to a movie!".

No one, they go to see how well you can plug in an extension cord...

Originally Posted by Kuba_Pietrzak

"if you had done your job right, I wouldn't have to call sound studio!!!"

If you had planned the sound properly prior to production you wouldn't have to...

[Thomas W. Bethe]

Originally Posted by pbell

Last week I was at a film industry function in Winnipeg and I got introduced to a gaffer. His first line to me "Who goes to listen to a movie!". Asshole! All I wanted to do was knock him out, but sadly I was there to kiss as much butt as possible to bring in some more work.

Had I been witty my response should have been "Yea, who does care?! Silent Films are sooooo popular right now."

I was doing audio for a television. We got a new "director" for one show who was not very talented or skilled but his uncle was the sponsor of the show. He had volunteered when our normal director had been taken ill. He had taken a couple of courses in AV production in college and thought this would be an easy way for him to get into the directing game.

Nothing about the show was easy and there were lots of problems that the whole crew had all worked on fixing in previous shows. The new "director" was basically an ego centered bxxxxxd who only cared about what HE was doing and how good things would look on HIS resume and HIS demo reel.

The show he was going to direct consisted of the panel discussion, some cutaways to prepared videos and some in studio guests that were the "studio audience" it was all done to tape with post production happening later and then shown on the air about two weeks after it was shot.

We had a pre-production meeting where he told us all the changes he was going to make on the show and told us what we were going to do for him. He never once asked us for our input or for suggestion or for any problems we saw with the "new" setup.

The talent was a normal mix of business and government leaders and the moderator was a local TV anchorman. The show normally was shot around a table with the moderator sitting at the head of the table and the other participants sitting on one side of the table. They all wore lavaliere microphones and it worked well. The studio audience came to one microphone to ask questions of the guests. The show had been very well received in the community and had been nominated for couple of awards.

The first change the new director made was to get rid of the table and put the panel in chairs around a half circle with the moderator in the middle with his back to the cameras but with a camera shooting him from the rear of the set so the director could cut to a face shot. This of course caused all kinds of problems for the camera people and the lighting director.

The next thing he decides is to get rid of the lavaliere microphones because "I don't like the way they look" and wanted to go to a boom microphone for the show. We had an ancient Mole-Richardson boom with an RCA microphone from the 50's mounted to it. It was sitting in a corner of the studio and had not been used for YEARS. We had to get it cleaned up and lubricated before we could even use it. We also had to train a boom operator which was not easy since this was a very fast paced show with lots of one line comments being made by the panelist. The lighting director was NOT pleased to have to deal with boom shadow and I was not at all pleased with the setup from an audio standpoint.

We arrived at the first shooting day and the "director" calls us all down for a pep talk and to again emphasis that it is HIS show and HE will be in charge. He then turns to me and the boom operator and says "since audio is not as important as the video aspects of this show you will do everything you can to make sure you do not interfere with the visual presentation of the show and if I see a boom shadow or the boom in the picture you will be in a lot of trouble"

We start to tape the show. To say there were problems would be a understatement. The cameras shooting the panelist were constantly shooting the camera and cameraman that was shooting the moderator. The "director" got more and more upset. In a couple of places he could not hear the one word responses from some of the panelist and started yelling at me and the boom operator for "not knowing how to do your jobs" At one point he turns to me and says "I told you that audio was NOT important in this program but please make sure every word is heard or you will be in "BIG trouble". The show goes on and on and we are not getting a lot of usable footage and post is going to be a real PITA.

What use to take almost real time has now dragged on to three hours and the crew and the talent are getting somewhat upset and tired. The director keeps yelling in to the headphone barking orders and you could tell just by listening to him that he was on the verge of a nervous breakdown. This was way beyond what he was capable of doing and his setup was ridiculous. He keeps asking me to turn up the monitor level and then a second later turn it down. At one point he reaches over and starts pushing buttons on the switcher but since he does not know what he is doing he basically puts the show to black. He is getting more and more upset and starts yelling and swearing at the crew and calls us all incompetent idiots. He tells me to "leave the monitor gain where I told you to leave it and throws down his headset on the console.

This is getting scary and the TD and I are starting to look at each other and wonder where this is going. He then yells at me that it is my fault that everything is coming unglued since the sound is "so important" to the show and I have been doing terrible work. He again takes off his headset and throws it down while yelling all kinds of swear words at me. About this time I have had enough and simply getup, turn down the audio monitor turn off the audio board and leave the room. I went outside and took some really deep breaths. The next thing I know my chief engineer and the station manager are standing beside me. They had been called by the tape operator when everything started to go wrong and he had also recorded the whole headset communications on the cue track of the VTR. The sponsor was called and shown the tape and heard the headset communication as well. He came and found me and apologized. We never saw or heard from the "director" again.

Our original director recovered and the next week the show went off without a hitch but we also went back to the "normal" show format.

This is not something I ever want to repeat and I have never actually seen someone "lose it" in real time. I was scared for my job but the tape operator, seeing what was going on, was smart enough to call in the cavalry when the show was going bad. I left that station after working there for less than a year but this was so over the top I will always remember it.

[Jfriah]

Originally Posted by Uncle Bob

If you had planned the sound properly prior to production you wouldn't have to...

Ah, yes. The 6 P's of audio post.

Poor Planning Prevents Proper Post Production

I prefer the 7'th P be added, usually.

dfegad Poor Planning Prevents Proper Post Production

-Jeff

[pbell]

Wow Thomas,

That is an incredible story. All I have to say is wow. I think I'm going to print that story out and put it in my desk, and whenever I think a client is going off the hook in my studio I'll read it, and remember that this is a fairly sane client in comparison.

Paul

[georgia]

THAT story is definitely one for the annuls of production pain.

ouch.




cheers
geo

[Jfriah]

Sorry, Georgia, wouldn't normally point out a typo, but in this case it is kind of amusing:

anals of production pain, or

annals of production pain

?

(chuckle)


Both would apply! More likely the former in the situation.
But I'll bet Thomas would have, at the time, liked to HAVE that guy annulled!

-Jeff

[georgia]

oops....


cheers
geo

[reflixtinian]

That reminds me my ex video partner .... he used to edit audio ... no I didn't kill him

Originally Posted by georgia

ah, Final Cut sound editing... the IPOD of POST. ....sigh.




cheers
geo

[slipdiskdave]

Ah, the Final Cut sound edit...when nudging or trimming by a full frame is close enough

Call me a softie, but I feel for these kids coming out of the schools. They're given such a distorted view of the marketplace, that we have no choice but to knock them down a peg when they strut into our studios. These kids spend 2-4 years in school sitting behind large format consoles, and are told that they'll have no problem finding a job driving one of these monsters out in the real world. When in reality, any facility large enough to still be using and maintaining a console of that magnitude, isn't gonna let some noob anywhere near it. I've been a successful post mixer for 12 years, and I've never worked on a console. Schools need to get the priorities straight!

We once once hired some young kid right out of (insert recording school name here). While getting him acquainted with one of the consoles in one of our music mixing rooms, he states, "You really should get somebody to zero out all of these pots and faders, and clean the modules at the end of every session." Guess what, pal...

[Makinithappen]

I like this thread....

[Kuba_Pietrzak]

Originally Posted by Jfriah

KUBA--- you mean the producer was yelling that at the location mixer, correct?

That's right... He wanted to all sound post in Avid with picture editor (just as a part of pic editing process). And this was Tv serie with lots of car chases, gun shots and so on... Just try to imagine doing this without proper sound post...

Kuba

[Kuba_Pietrzak]

Originally Posted by Uncle Bob

If you had planned the sound properly prior to production you wouldn't have to...

Read my post above...

Kuba

[music_maker]

As someone who went to one of these "puppy training mills" i am going to defend someones right to learn. I understand that a lot of these kids are hacks, i had to go to college with them...but a handful are incredibly talented, devoted, intelligent and also have good people skills.

I've worked with a ton of directors/producers that are just the same way as these kids coming out of school: ignorant. Some people call what we do an inch wide and a mile deep but I think at this point it's a mile wide and a mile deep.

Sorry about the rant I just hate it when people pull the young/stupid card.

As for these places where people post stuff for cheap jobs, I dont think that would ever really fly on any project worth its salt. They have to be able to trust these people with something they have spent countless days and nights on. Anyone that really cares about the end product will continue to go to respected and trusted post houses.

[Thomas W. Bethe]

99% of the student interns I have here are GREAT. They work hard, they learn quickly and they are fun to be around. The 1% either learn quickly or there are 10 others waiting to take their place. I really like being around students. It keeps me young. They make mistakes but that is how they learn. I put them on projects that are not mission critical and see how they do. If they are at all good then they keep getting more and more critical assignments and soon start working with clients. If they are part of the 1% that cannot, will not learn then I have no real choice but to let them work somewhere else. My flight instructor always told me you start off with a lot of luck and hopefully by the time the luck runs out you have the knowledge keep yourself safe. This statement probably has some meanings in post as well.

Many students come in with a thirst for knowledge and cannot get enough to satiate their thirst. Others come in and think that they know more than they do. Some of them soon realize that they may not know as much as they think they do. They either admit they don't have the knowledge they think they do or adopt a "hey I know everything" type posture to cover up their inadequacies and start upsetting other workers and/or myself. If they don't listen to what I have to tell them about how much they "really know" they may wind up seeking other employment.

Some students I have interviewed from the "large console schools" think that what they did in college or audio school is real world and their senior project was FANTASTICFANTABULOS and worthy of a Grammy or Oscar. Some see their schooling as basic training and now they are ready for the real world training to sharpen their skill set and make themselves more valuable to their employers. The second set of students are the ones that I like to hire.

When a student leaves here it is always difficult because I have spent so much time training them and now when they are starting to be valuable they are moving on but I always feel that they are going to keep on learning and will someday be the masters of the post production game.

This has been and hopefully always will be a mentor type of operation and that is how my knowledge and skills are passed down from my generation to the next. If the student does not want to learn or thinks they already know it all because they sat in front of a large NEVE or SSL console for a brief period of time then they may have a very short future in the business.

Good topic.

[slipdiskdave]

Originally Posted by music_maker

As someone who went to one of these "puppy training mills" i am going to defend someones right to learn. I understand that a lot of these kids are hacks, i had to go to college with them...but a handful are incredibly talented, devoted, intelligent and also have good people skills.

I've worked with a ton of directors/producers that are just the same way as these kids coming out of school: ignorant. Some people call what we do an inch wide and a mile deep but I think at this point it's a mile wide and a mile deep.

Sorry about the rant I just hate it when people pull the young/stupid card.

As for these places where people post stuff for cheap jobs, I dont think that would ever really fly on any project worth its salt. They have to be able to trust these people with something they have spent countless days and nights on. Anyone that really cares about the end product will continue to go to respected and trusted post houses.

Hey MusicMaker

I'm with you. There are definitely, talented and dedicated people coming out of these schools. My problem is with what seems to be taught at these institutions, and the skewed view of the industry that seems to be perpetuated in order to attract students. I've been involved in hiring some of these smart, talented, enthusiastic people. Unfortunately, I feel like post is a field where technical ability and "engineering" skills aren't always as valuable as people skills, organizational abilities, and time management. These are all things that we always have to drill into kids who think they should immediately be in the chair with a major film or network client. Having said that, some of our best employees have come out of these schools. Its just been my experience that its harder to sometimes train these employees because they've been told and taught to expect things that are just not realistic. I think these schools are valuable; they just need to teach their students how to open an OMF and creatively sound design a :30, before they put them on a 128-input Harrison and tell them they'll be driving one right after graduation.

My 2 cents.

[Jfriah]

Originally Posted by music_maker

As for these places where people post stuff for cheap jobs, I dont think that would ever really fly on any project worth its salt.... Anyone that really cares about the end product will continue to go to respected and trusted post houses.

Not enough salt to go around these days; it is a pricey item apparently. Nobody wants to spend salt let alone dollars.

Originally Posted by slipdiskdave

...I feel like post is a field where technical ability and "engineering" skills aren't always as valuable as people skills, organizational abilities, and time management. ...how to open an OMF and creatively sound design a :30

Your skills don't mean nuthin' if you have nobody to use them with/for.




-Jeff

[iheartspag]

I think it is important for students to understand that when you are at college it is very easy to simply coast along and get a pass. To get more out of it (like anything in life) you have to be prepeared to put in the effort. I think this is not always passed on to students for fear of upsetting them, as colleges are now being run like businesses. I graduated a year ago after studying a course of sound design. I did learn alot from the course but I gained more from the opportunities the course gave me. Through the university I was able to arrange work experience and develop contacts within a few companies, one of which I am now working for. So much more is learnt from observing and speaking to people in a "real world environment" and although I assumed this was common knowledge, some of the comments in this group suggest that maybe this would be a more important lesson to learn at college. I dont see any problem with going to college to get a grounding in your education but that is really all it is, A Grounding!

[RScott]

I came from a film Sound Design degree at a decent film school.

We had, at the time, good access to equipment and studio time. The gear and equipment we had access to was great and matches industry pretty well. The quality of instruction was pretty good. More than enough to shape someone with the attitude and drive into a very productive and worthwhile hiree.

The number one biggest problem with going to a school like that is the fact that you are surrounded by many, many different types of students. Some want to be there, some don't. You aren't really told that most of them won't make it. A friend who did some work for the school calling alums to ask for donations told me that about 60% or more did not currently work in the field they had majored in. There is no discussion or very little discussion about what the job market for your major is, and the only way to find this out is to ask some alumni or businesses who go through a lot of these graduates in their hiring process.

If a student keeps his/her head on and can filter out the 90% of students who aren't going anywhere, a specialty school may work at producing the end product (getting you into a specialized industry.) I still don't know if it is worth the cost, but it does give you a great trial/error environment to tackle recording and mixing jobs that are well above what you could expect to do at an entry level position.

Many of the above comments are 100% correct. The difference between student projects and real world day in day out work is a big step. Someone who has done what they should in their school should be able to tackle it, though, but I couldn't imagine walking into an interview and trying to sell myself as a seasoned pro because of my schoolwork assignments!