Terminology for music playing in the scene

[ergalthema]

I'm drawing a blank here. What is the term for music that is playing in the scene - like on a character's radio or stereo?

[JoeMilner]

If it's on a radio or stereo, it called Source Music
best,

Joe

[philper]

Diagetic? I've always called it "source music".

Philip Perkins

[Uncle Bob]

I've always called songs used in a film (as opposed to the score) source music. If it comes from the TV, radio, juke box, etc. it's diagetic, if it's used as the a part of the score it's non-diagetic.

[TVPostSound]

Diegetic




.

[JoeMilner]

Nothin' like a 4-Syllable word to replace a 1-Syllable word.

[amiller]

I thought it was "environmental"...

[gmarinov]

filmsound terminology: Diegetic/Non-diegetic sound. (applies to music).

[ergalthema]

Thanks!

I wish I could say "Diegetic" was the term I couldn't think of, but it was "source". I believe I've heard "environmental music" used some as well.

[dsteinwedel]

My teacher in a film class taught us the term Diagetic. And I have never heard it used by a filmmaker, editor, or post-pro person.

[Uncle Bob]

People like Randy Thom and Charles Maynes use the term DIEGETIC quite often on their discussions on music and audio post - I learned the term from them.

[TVPostSound]

Diegetic also applies to dialogue.








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[Uncle Bob]

Diegetic sounds are related to what is seen, i.e. see a door close, hear door close; see a character speak, hear a character speak, or a sound emanating from a source related to what is happening in a scene. Non-diegetic can be narration and score. There are some sounds that blur the lines.

[Haydn]

Just to add some extra confusion to this issue, in videogames it is sometimes called point sourced music.

I.e. it might be panned/attenuated to give the impression it is coming from a particular point in an environment, rather than being played at a constant level in both or all channels.

[Berolzheimer]

Around here it's usually called source, which can be confusing because cues from pre-existing recordings, like pop songs, are also called source even when they're used as part of the score. Diegetic is certainly more specific but I never hear anyone use it.

[danijel]

I wonder if anywhere else in the world terms immanent and transcendent are used for film sound and music?

We use the first in common speech for diegetic sound, and the latter for non-diegetic. Diegetic itself also sounds a little too academic....

[macaholic]

To further elaborate on Uncle Bob's post, diegetic can be thought of as music/sounds, etc that the characters in the scene are "aware" of or are able to interact with...

Not so with score or narration, so thats why they are classified as non diegetic, or happening outside of the awareness of the characters on screen.

[charles maynes]

Originally Posted by Uncle Bob

People like Randy Thom and Charles Maynes use the term DIEGETIC quite often on their discussions on music and audio post - I learned the term from them.

Hey- I actually got an F in my experimental film class I took in College-

Source is what I call it-


like in the music is on the radio....

I dont even know many words that complicated...

[dr.sound]

Sorry guys, it's source.
In 30 years of mixing never has anyone said "diagetic" on any Dub Stage I've been on.
Then there is "underscore"....
Underscore | Define Underscore at Dictionary.com

[iluvcapra]

Originally Posted by dr.sound

Sorry guys, it's source.
In 30 years of mixing never has anyone said "diagetic" on any Dub Stage I've been on.

There's a distinction though -- diegetic implies that the sound is expressed within the scope of the camera's environment. Guns are diegetic-- "source" is a much more specific standard.

I don't recall ever hearing a big client using the word, but I have heard other editors use it, and not just cbm. There's really no other word that maps to the concept -- before the 80s I'm not really sure there was such a thing as non-diegetic sound that wasn't music, but nowadays if somebody wants a whoosh for a grenade flying by, there's sorta two routes you can take for it: the plain swish through the air or the "in your head" version.

It is sorta academic but I'm not gonna demand its abolishment.

[bloodyh]

And another pass: if you've got the opportunity, check Michel Chion's book called Audio-Vision: Sound on Screen. If you're looking for terminology, he is the guy to talk to! Well, to read at least... I'm not saying it is of common use in mixing sessions, this people like Charles Maynes - hi Charles - will tell you more about - go ahead, Charles .

A little summary:

- diegetic music (and diegetic sound in general) is sound that happens in the scene. Hard effects, ambiances, source music, dialogue, etc. Of course in diegetic sounds there is on-screen sound (which source you can see in the picture) and off-screen sound (which source you don't see).

- non-diegetic sound will be what's NOT in the scene, like VO (cf. Uncle Bob's post), mood music, and I can't think of anything else just now.

- environmental sound is the kind of sound that sets up your environment. Chirping birds and you're in the countryside, wind and you're in the clouds, etc.

This is just off the top of my head but if you want to talk about terminology you should have read Chion

Hope that will help!

[charles maynes]

Originally Posted by iluvcapra

There's a distinction though -- diegetic implies that the sound is expressed within the scope of the camera's environment. Guns are diegetic-- "source" is a much more specific standard.

I don't recall ever hearing a big client using the word, but I have heard other editors use it, and not just cbm. There's really no other word that maps to the concept -- before the 80s I'm not really sure there was such a thing as non-diegetic sound that wasn't music, but nowadays if somebody wants a whoosh for a grenade flying by, there's sorta two routes you can take for it: the plain swish through the air or the "in your head" version.

It is sorta academic but I'm not gonna demand its abolishment.

Jamey got his degree at USC, which is why he knows this stuff.... and he is WAY smarter than I am (seriously)

On a serious note, I had never quite considered that application of the term- I had always expected source or diegetic sound to be a bit like an actuality- whether it be music or a radio show, or a film or tv program that is happening (and is being observed on or off camera) inside of a scene.

As to it being used to describe an inner perspective of an event, I had not considered the possibility of the term being used like that, though it is entirely reasonable.

[bloodyh]

So Jamey, wouldn't you recommend reading Chion? :P

[Jfriah]

Originally Posted by dsteinwedel

My teacher in a film class taught us the term Diagetic. And I have never heard it used by a filmmaker, editor, or post-pro person.

Yeah. Pretty much film-school jargon. It was recently used on me and I knew how long they had been out in the 'real world'. Calling score 'soundtrack' and general sound effects 'noise'.

'diegetic', yes, refers to 'sound coming from onscreen'--could be any sound.

These days, careful folks, 'underscore' and 'source' are often used for music specifically. In Canada, I believe it has changed to 'feature' and 'background'---feature being anything the characters hear (what we used to call 'source').

I wish they'd just have stayed with 'score' and 'source'...

Anyway...moving on.

Jeff

p.s. over course, on a lot of projects these days, the decisions are made to make 'underscore' become 'overscore'
(chuckle)...

[bizzle]

Then there is my personal favorite: "Scorce" Music

[georgia]

Hey!

I teach it as diegetic and non-diegetic as the two primary areas of which a sound in picture is described. Under each I talk to more of the details and types. But these are the two primary areas of sound in a picture based project...

cheers
geo

[Jfriah]

Yes! You TEACH it! Haha, you're forgiven!

[georgia]

Originally Posted by Jfriah

Yes! You TEACH it! Haha, you're forgiven!

smart ass..... yeah, ok... i seldom use it in the course of a day...



cheers
geo

[Andrew Mottl]

Funny, I've just been reading up on the topic...
Diegetic (according to some) doesn't neccessarily only mean "on screen" or "heard by the characters" - there is a distinction between "internal diegetic" and "external diegetic". Internal would be things like thoughts / memories of a character, inner voices etc. They are part of the story - external diegetic would be all dlg, foley, fx, atmos etc.

Then again - I've hardly heard this from other people working in the business
And as for the music - I've too mostly heard score and source.
My two cents.

[bloodyh]

Yeah this is what I couldn't seem to remember or pin down when I wrote my post: internal and external I guess we could say that diegetic is everything happening at the time of the scene...