Post Production Console

[Playback]

Asking all slutz what the right Post Production console and surround monitors for Films and Music is?
I have most of the gear but need Console And Monitors.
I have my eye on a few but wanted the slutz view first.
I have a control 24 but want to go ALL Analog.
Should I build a custom console? tonelux style or Buy a new one Neve.etc..
Not worried about the budget.
I get the whole idea in "The Petition to Stop 'Project Studio' Technology" Thread.
But Post is the real answer to the problem.IMHO
Thanks in advance.

[AdAudioInc]

I have used for years - and still use Genelecs for Post production. I mainly produce tv and radio ads as well as do ADR and documentary mixing. I think you will find that most post houses still use genelecs. - so from a compatability / translation aspect alone, they should be considered.

[Playback]

Thanx. Is there anyone else who works in Post???

[jayfrigo]

It depends on what level of the industry are you trying to serve, what space it will go into, what kind of work it will be doing, how many operators, what's the budget, and what's the clientele? The easy answer is to get a Harrison MPC and some JBL cinema speakers behind a perforated screen in a nice big dub stage. Somehow I think this is not what you're looking for, or maybe it is...

Neve and SSL also have post consoles (DFC & MMC, and Avant & C200). The Digidesign ICON is a capable post machine. Yamaha's DM2000 can do some good work in a smaller room, as can things like the C24 you already have, some pro control setups, the older Sony DMX-R100, or the Yamaha 02r96. These little mixers/control surfaces can handle bigger jobs by putting two together in an Argosy type frame. Are you doing just mix, or adr, loop group, & foley? These and the questions above are necessary to offer an informed opinion.

In the middle ground, probably one of the best deals out there is to find a used Harrison series 12. They aren't selling for too much compared to other large format high-end consoles since the newer digital consoles, large and small, have become so popular in post, but it's an absolutely fabulous desk for film and TV. However, skip the Neve Logic 2 and also pass on the SSL 5000. These used consoles are cheap for a reason, and you don't want to take on those problems.

Without knowing more, all I can do is offer this very general roundup. Good luck on your search.

[Duffster]

I think the euphonix consoles in post are great. Well worth a thought.

[MissionDifficult]

I think it would be cool to go with an analog console for post, but if you don't do that, I would recommend just sticking with the Control 24. As for monitors, the JBL Cinema Series are really nice (as jay said) and will give you a better idea of what your mix will sound like in theaters (provided your B chain is in order). It would also be a good idea to have a set of Genelecs set up or at least available. I was just thinking, you said ALL analog, does that mean you're going to be using analog tape as well?

[Playback]

Originally Posted by jayfrigo

It depends on what level of the industry are you trying to serve, what space it will go into, what kind of work it will be doing, how many operators, what's the budget, and what's the clientele? The easy answer is to get a Harrison MPC and some JBL cinema speakers behind a perforated screen in a nice big dub stage. Somehow I think this is not what you're looking for, or maybe it is...

Neve and SSL also have post consoles (DFC & MMC, and Avant & C200). The Digidesign ICON is a capable post machine. Yamaha's DM2000 can do some good work in a smaller room, as can things like the C24 you already have, some pro control setups, the older Sony DMX-R100, or the Yamaha 02r96. These little mixers/control surfaces can handle bigger jobs by putting two together in an Argosy type frame. Are you doing just mix, or adr, loop group, & foley? These and the questions above are necessary to offer an informed opinion.

In the middle ground, probably one of the best deals out there is to find a used Harrison series 12. They aren't selling for too much compared to other large format high-end consoles since the newer digital consoles, large and small, have become so popular in post, but it's an absolutely fabulous desk for film and TV. However, skip the Neve Logic 2 and also pass on the SSL 5000. These used consoles are cheap for a reason, and you don't want to take on those problems.

Without knowing more, all I can do is offer this very general roundup. Good luck on your search.

Ok to answer some of your questions it is going into a huge wharehouse space.
I will be working on Commercials and major studio films.
2 operators Budget is large!!You still think a Harrison is the one for me?
Thanks for all the insight.

[Playback]

Originally Posted by jayfrigo

It depends on what level of the industry are you trying to serve, what space it will go into, what kind of work it will be doing, how many operators, what's the budget, and what's the clientele? The easy answer is to get a Harrison MPC and some JBL cinema speakers behind a perforated screen in a nice big dub stage. Somehow I think this is not what you're looking for, or maybe it is...

Neve and SSL also have post consoles (DFC & MMC, and Avant & C200). The Digidesign ICON is a capable post machine. Yamaha's DM2000 can do some good work in a smaller room, as can things like the C24 you already have, some pro control setups, the older Sony DMX-R100, or the Yamaha 02r96. These little mixers/control surfaces can handle bigger jobs by putting two together in an Argosy type frame. Are you doing just mix, or adr, loop group, & foley? These and the questions above are necessary to offer an informed opinion.

In the middle ground, probably one of the best deals out there is to find a used Harrison series 12. They aren't selling for too much compared to other large format high-end consoles since the newer digital consoles, large and small, have become so popular in post, but it's an absolutely fabulous desk for film and TV. However, skip the Neve Logic 2 and also pass on the SSL 5000. These used consoles are cheap for a reason, and you don't want to take on those problems.

Without knowing more, all I can do is offer this very general roundup. Good luck on your search.

Ok to answer some of your questions it is going into a huge wharehouse space.
I will be working on Commercials and major studio films.
2 operators Budget is large!!You still think a Harrison is the one for me?
Thanks for all the insight.

[grahluk]

Hmmmnnn.....? Ok I didn't read that thread you referred to. I saw the title and still don't want to wade through it. If I'm somehow misreading your intentions let me know. As to your question the short answer is a question. Why would you want an analog console for post? There is only one sector of post production where it may possibly make sense and that is on a large scoring stage. If you're doing orchestra dates then yes a nice SSL 9K would be tops. Other than that I don't know of anyplace in post where having an analog console would be an advantage and I don't know anyone or where you will find one. If it is a big scoring room you want to do in NYC all I got to say is STOP! DON"T DO IT! Now that Hit Factory is gone there is a minute slim chance that Right Track's big west side room may survive as the only place setup ideally for that kind of work, but it's doubtful in the long run IMO. Last I heard they were renting out the room for product demos and parties to fill time.

The next few thoughts that came to mind when I read your question is wouldn't the console be largely influenced by the heavy hitter film or commercial mixer you have lined up to occupy that room? You do have a contract with such an individual don't you? The succesful major film and high end commercial spot houses are just that because of the individuals not the gear. A place can be at the top of their game but if their contracted mixer(s) pick up and go to the place across town it can start the studio's death spiral if someone can't fill their shoes. I don't know the aim of your intents. You can't build the world's greatest post mixing room and attract clients. The clients come with the mixer. In post they're like hair stylists. They have their clientelle that follows them around to whatever studio they settle into. If you got one of those individuals at the end of a fishing pole they will let it be known exactly what monitors and console to get.

Ok if I've just made a big ass of myself by preaching about things you already know I'll give my 2cents on your specific question. Console in post? None. Blow out your PTHD rig to 6+ interfaces, as many cards as you can afford, and the subsystem to handle the aforementioned then get thee an Icon surface. There are some great competetive consoles that may do the "console" job better but overall for workflow you can't do much better. Mags are gone, digital dubbers, are pretty much gone, it's all just big drives and track count. As for monitors? The JBL cinema stuff is probably the right choice if it's film your doing. Remember, your not building the great music mix room. You're building a theater with a console in it. If you want to be Dolby certified you should also contact them about the specifics of the room build to qualify. If it's HDTV, DVD, video games, or other non cinema surround dump the JBL cinema speakers (they don't suck but they sure aren't hifi) and go with whatever your flavor of choice in near or mid field monitors are. Genelecs are fine and common. Don't overlook Dynaudio or for the more $$$ option there are some B&W niceness.
Good Luck.

[jayfrigo]

Originally Posted by Playback

Ok to answer some of your questions it is going into a huge wharehouse space.
I will be working on Commercials and major studio films.
2 operators Budget is large!!You still think a Harrison is the one for me?
Thanks for all the insight.

Cool. So you have enough space to make a real dub stage. Retrofit music control rooms just really aren't good re-recording stages. If you want to get some major film work, the room needs to be of a certain size and configuration, but if you also want to commercial work and possibly TV series as well, it can't be super-big. You don't want a room as big as the Cary Grant stage as that's only going to work for film. You probably want what would be considered a med. to large TV room, or a small to med. film stage.

For this work, you do need at least a two operator setup. The big film rooms still use three, but most TV drama is down to 2 (sit-coms to 1), and many film mixes are only 2 mixers as well. Nobody has 4 men anymore. Foley has been folded into the effects mixer's job usually, and the dialog chair often (but not always) handles music if it's a 2 man stage.

If you were to follow some others' advice and go with an ICON, which would certainly work but not fit your analog request, I'd caution you to get two master sections with 2 PTHD rigs instead of one large rig. A two man stage should have independent workstations so one can be brought offline for editing while the other mixer continues to work, or so that one mixer can work while the other is loading changes from the edit house. One pilot I worked on was in a room with 4 Control-24s and 5 PTHD rigs. the 4 rigs that went with the C24s were the typical dialog, music, effects, and foley, and the fifth PTHD rig that didn't have the C24 was the destination for the mix stems. All the rigs were tied together through an Otari pixmix system. It was a 2 man mix (I was on effects and foley for that one).

If you want to stay analog, I still think a Harrison series 12 is your best bet. That's a big enough and respected enough console to do real film work. It is easily expandable without needing a larger control surface as it has 4 layers available per channel so a 2 man 48 fader desk can have upto 192 fully featured inputs. The routing, automation, multi-format monitoring, and pec/direct paddles make it a true and powerful post console. The Harrison MPC, the top of the line film console, also used to come in an analog version, though I doubt you'll be able to find one. The MPC and series 12 aren't actually all that different. They are control surfaces with audio towers in the machine room. I think most MPCs were updated into digital consoles (or remain in use), but several analog series 12s remained, so you could still probably find one, or maybe get one directly from Harrison.

For main monitoring, you really can't use music speakers. You won't get serious film work with those. Get something like the JBL cinema speakers with a surround array (a pair of direct radiators in back is first choice music but not for post) and make sure to have a good tuning done with an X-curve. This kind of monitoring will work for TV and commercials too. You can have any close fields you like, and these can be music-friendly types. You'll also want something like an auratone or at least NS-10s if you are doing TV work as it will need to translate. Some people actually send a console output right to something like a Sony 27" consumer TV. That provides a nice reference and the clients can watch on it in the back of the room.

Another poster mentioned having a "name" mixer lined up. That really is a big deal to be able ro fill an expensive dub stage. If you don't have one, you will be more likely be soliciting a mixer with a show or a clientele more than you will be soliciting the actual producers. Often the client just goes where their preferred mixer is. Sometimes they go to a facility, but that's because of the mixers that are there and the credits and track record they bring. Try to make it a friendly stage for outside mixers and you will do better.

So, in the end, I still think the Harrison series 12 is in the lead to meet the criteria you have set. If you decide to go digital, there are more options. In analog, I think this is the best answer. I hope when you say analog that you aren't planning to go without pro tools DAWs connected to your analog mixer. That will really put a dent in your workload. Everybody will be delivering Pro Tools sessions, and clients expect to be able to make changes and edits during the mix if something isn't working. You'll need a couple pro tools rigs attached.

Good luck with your plans, and come back and let us know what you end up choosing.

[grahluk]

Yep what jayfrigo said. I work at a house that does commercial post. We have a Dolby certified film room and some other rooms that are more suited to non theatrical surround. All our rooms are single operators so a pure PTHD/Icon setup works really well. I'm not sure if the Icon can be split/controlled by multiple rigs. My feeling is no. If your mix is being fed by multiple operators/rigs a console may be the good move. Still feel a digital console will do you much better than analog IMO. That 4 C24/PT feed into a master PT rig sounds interesting.

[jayfrigo]

Originally Posted by grahluk

I'm not sure if the Icon can be split/controlled by multiple rigs. My feeling is no. If your mix is being fed by multiple operators/rigs a console may be the good move. Still feel a digital console will do you much better than analog IMO. That 4 C24/PT feed into a master PT rig sounds interesting.

For an Icon rig to take advantage of 2 PT systems, you actually need two ICON main sections. It's essentially buying two completely independent rigs and integrating them together on the stage. There are already some 2 man ICON installations out there, and it's similar to how they used to do multi man pro-control setups or that multi-C24 stage I mentioned. You do need to tie monitoring together (which in the C24 rig was accomplished with the pixmix box) and it takes a litle more thought an integration when installing, but it can be made to function as a two man system without too much trouble. Digidesign has some people that will know how to advise you, but it won't be the guy at the music store, nor will it necessarily be the local rep who handles music and basic post. They have a few guys that understand the high-end post applications. You just need to ask for them.

[Playback]

Originally Posted by jayfrigo

. That will really put a dent in your workload. Everybody will be delivering Pro Tools sessions, and clients expect to be able to make changes and edits during the mix if something isn't working. You'll need a couple pro tools rigs attached.

Good luck with your plans, and come back and let us know what you end up choosing.

Hey Jay & Grahluk Thanks for all your insight.I will be running PTHD I have one rig now I plan on maybe getting another. As for the Icon it might work for me.I am setting up a room that is going to due Post & Music that is why I was asking what the best Analog console to do the job for both.It looks like I should have Both in the same room? Maybe my control24 or an Icon & and analog console for mixing Music.The one thing I don't like about the icon is the knobs are really plastic and it feels like a Tonka Toy.
Maybe I will get a few used procontrol's but the problem with that is that they are not supported by digidesign beacause theyt are used.
Well keep the suggestions coming and once again thanks for your detailed responses!!!
Oh yeah Jay how much do the Harrison 12 & Harrison Mpc usually Cost?

[Playback]

[jayfrigo]

Originally Posted by Playback

and once again thanks for your detailed responses!!!
Oh yeah Jay how much do the Harrison 12 & Harrison Mpc usually Cost?

Glad to help.

For a few leads on a series 12, check out these links:
http://www.primalgear.com/hase12caforp.html
http://www.oceanaudioinc.com/cw2/Res...fm?category=17
http://www.ams-neve.com/spec.htm
http://www.odysseyprosound.com/Harrison-RB.html

The big ones are over $100k, the smaller or older ones are under. They aren't super cheap, but really not too bad considering. A smaller one can be had for similar to AWS900 or Icon money.

[Playback]

Thanks Jay

[Playback]

Thanks for all you help Jay.
Anymore slutz have any opinion's!!!

[BruceTheProduce]

If you wanna go analogue and don't care about the budget the SSl aws 900 is for ya
http://www.solid-state-logic.com/music/products/aws900/

[Playback]

Originally Posted by BruceTheProduce

If you wanna go analogue and don't care about the budget the SSl aws 900 is for ya
http://www.solid-state-logic.com/music/products/aws900/

Hey could you please expand on why this is best for me.
Thanks for the insight!!!stike