Theaters and the destruction of film sound

[kdm]

I do post audio myself in another state and thought this might be of interest to the guys mixing feature films in LA (and producers/film studios as well).

Just saw the 3rd major film at our local megaplex Cinemark theater (12-15 large stadium style theaters) with only mono sound. Yep. Mono.

Ironman - right channel only - I complained but they didn't or couldn't correct it.

Bolt - center channel only. Couldn't leave to complain as I had my kids with me.

Harry Potter and the Half Blood Prince - center channel with noise/hiss as well (also sounded harsh). I complained and they managed to shut off the hiss, but still only had the center and a little right channel and subs. Hardly heard the score at all.

When in mono, it's obvious they are summing everything to the center, not just missing the right, left, surrounds, etc.

Obviously the problem is they are hiring 16, 17 year olds at most of these theaters (the night manager tonight couldn't have been over 18) and/or aren't training them.

The average moviegoer may not notice, but I always do. The trailers were in mono, so I knew the audio was likely set wrong, and it was.

I can't see film studios being overly happy about this, assuming it's an issue for more than just post audio guys who happen to know what to listen for.

Is this happening in other major theaters?

[tilman]

I guess setting up a proper homecinema system is becoming more and more appealing to me

Just saw transformers 2 without subwoofer. It was a big multiplex.
I wanted my money back. No luck....

Watching such a brainless fx movie without "Subbass Power" is realy painful.

[Clueless]

Originally Posted by kdm

I do post audio myself in another state and thought this might be of interest to the guys mixing feature films in LA (and producers/film studios as well).

Just saw the 3rd major film at our local megaplex Cinemark theater (12-15 large stadium style theaters) with only mono sound. Yep. Mono.

Ironman - right channel only - I complained but they didn't or couldn't correct it.

Bolt - center channel only. Couldn't leave to complain as I had my kids with me.

Harry Potter and the Half Blood Prince - center channel with noise/hiss as well (also sounded harsh). I complained and they managed to shut off the hiss, but still only had the center and a little right channel and subs. Hardly heard the score at all.

[...]

Is this happening in other major theaters?

That, and worse. I no longer expect the film to be in focus. And I wear earplugs because THEY PLAY THE SOUNDTRACK WAY TOO LOUD.

The result: I've basically stopped going to the movies, except when it's a social engagement that I really cannot get out of (like chaperoning the in-laws).

Americans are going deaf, and their increasing lack of basic sense (of all kinds, common, artistic, aesthetic, authentic, etc) is such that I think Wall*E is really optimistic that it will only take 700 years before we're all so fat and stupid that (1) we could believe that pizza grows on trees, and (2) sufficiently unfit that we could not pick such strange fruit even if it were hanging right in front of us.

Sorry, but I had to get that out of my system.

[Lipflap]

Originally Posted by Clueless

That, and worse. I no longer expect the film to be in focus. And I wear earplugs because THEY PLAY THE SOUNDTRACK WAY TOO LOUD.

The result: I've basically stopped going to the movies, except when it's a social engagement that I really cannot get out of (like chaperoning the in-laws).

Americans are going deaf, and their increasing lack of basic sense (of all kinds, common, artistic, aesthetic, authentic, etc) is such that I think Wall*E is really optimistic that it will only take 700 years before we're all so fat and stupid that (1) we could believe that pizza grows on trees, and (2) sufficiently unfit that we could not pick such strange fruit even if it were hanging right in front of us.

Sorry, but I had to get that out of my system.

And I was sure it was only in tiny countries where going to the cinema is a frustrating, angering, "I'll never do that again" experience.
I refuse to give up, but between the bad focus, bad sound, ugly patrons and ads, I have to muster all my belief in the "big screen experience" to go to a real screening rather than just wait for cable to show the film, even though seeing it on TV is a grossly diminished experience.
At times I wonder why we all work so hard, although I can't imagine the alternative.

[Brent Hahn]

One of the big upstairs theaters at the Cinemark Century 8 in North Hollywood had the front and rear L/R's swapped for about 6 months. Hard to not notice when the music's coming from behind you.

On the other hand, a couple of their tiny downstairs rooms, where movies get demoted to in their 2nd or 3rd week, are among the best I've ever heard. Probably because they have the exact same gear as the upstairs theaters, but they're only a tenth of the size.

[Dan_K]

I saw Doomsday last year and there was a delay between the left and right speakers... Maybe Neil Marshall made this decision in the mix to distract viewers from the film's horrendous plot

[Sonsey@mac.com]

My favourite story about this: At the Famous Players chain here in Canada, an employee is assigned to "sound check" - i.e. check in the theatre after the show has started and make sure the sound is actually on. One of my fellow engineer's daughter got the job, based on the fact that "your dad does this, so you must know something about it". Either funny or sad, depending on how you look at it...

[Henchman]

I try to only see movies at the Arclight, and so far, ti's been great.
And I love the ability to buy pre-assigned seats.

[kdm]

Originally Posted by Lipflap

I refuse to give up, but between the bad focus, bad sound, ugly patrons and ads, I have to muster all my belief in the "big screen experience" to go to a real screening rather than just wait for cable to show the film, even though seeing it on TV is a grossly diminished experience.
At times I wonder why we all work so hard, although I can't imagine the alternative.

My feelings exactly. I used to look forward to seeing blockbusters on the big screen for the experience, but in the past year, almost every one has been with poor sound. I can't help but wonder if that eventually affects business for these theaters.

We only see 5 or 6 movies a year at the theater, so having this happen 3 times recently is pushing me to consider a bigger LCD for home and just rent DVDs, or just take the family to watch DVDs at my studio - smaller screen, but I know it would sound great.

I intend to talk to all of our local theaters about their process and see if something can be done to improve quality control. Putting a multi-million dollar film presentation into the hands of teenagers is somewhat ironic. The kids do the best they can, but aren't held to, or trained to a very high standard. I am sure that could most could be.

[emf1138]

Originally Posted by Henchman

I try to only see movies at the Arclight, and so far, ti's been great.
And I love the ability to buy pre-assigned seats.

Same. +1000 for the arclight.

[iluvatar]

I refuse to attend anything but 2 theaters in our area. We saw "Up" in an "unapproved" (by me) theater, and most of the audio was all the way over to the left. Wife said that, due to scheduling, we might have to return to that theater to see HP this weekend, and a pinched a f'ing fit.

We went to an approved theater. (which isn't even all that good - it's a bit harsh and brutally loud, but it's well above average).

-Dan.

[soundboy]

I must be lucky. The theaters I go to seem to have their ducks in a row. Century City and The Grove.

[dr.sound]

Originally Posted by Clueless

That, and worse. I no longer expect the film to be in focus. And I wear earplugs because THEY PLAY THE SOUNDTRACK WAY TOO LOUD.

The result: I've basically stopped going to the movies, except when it's a social engagement that I really cannot get out of (like chaperoning the in-laws).

Americans are going deaf, and their increasing lack of basic sense (of all kinds, common, artistic, aesthetic, authentic, etc) is such that I think Wall*E is really optimistic that it will only take 700 years before we're all so fat and stupid that (1) we could believe that pizza grows on trees, and (2) sufficiently unfit that we could not pick such strange fruit even if it were hanging right in front of us.

Sorry, but I had to get that out of my system.

Clueless,
We get it. Over and over...."THEY PLAY THE SOUNDTRACK WAY TOO LOUD"
What happens when a "Rock band" comes in to mix at your studio?
Clueless?

[Clueless]

Originally Posted by dr.sound

Clueless,
We get it. Over and over...."THEY PLAY THE SOUNDTRACK WAY TOO LOUD"
What happens when a "Rock band" comes in to mix at your studio?
Clueless?

Ambient recording level, mastering level, and playback level are three different things. We're building an environment that should work quite well with extremely loud ambient recording level (i.e., a series of 51dB doors between the tracking room and control room, 21" thick dual-wythe concrete block walls, etc). We likely won't be doing mastering, as there is already a world-class mastering facility just up the road (Kitchen Mastering). Thus it's up to Brent Lambert (or whomever) to decide whether to follow good or bad industry practices with respect to mastering levels and the loudness wars. Listeners who are in control of their own playback levels (either home stereos, iPods, what have you) have only themselves to blame if their listening levels cause long-term hearing loss. Listeners who are not in control of their own playback levels (audience members at concerts, theater patrons, etc) are dependent on the good sense of the venue operator.

It has long been known that many live music venues are unsafe for unprotected ears, and it's quite customary for concert-goers to use earplugs to protect their hearing. But the history of the movie experience, up until recently, has been that movies were mixed and mastered to levels safe for hearing and optimal for experience (including the odd shock and awe). Now, whether because the engineers have lost control of their levels (due to the expansion the loudness wars into the film domain) or because operators have simply lost their minds (thinking, mistakenly, that the louder the volume, the "better" the movie-going experience), the result is that an increasing number of movies are no longer safe experiences without hearing protection.

Eric Clapton has spoken about how stupid he was about not protecting his own hearing. I take his experience to heart and choose to protect myself. It makes me sad, but I'm less likely to see a movie because of the increased hassle and discomfort that I must endure in order to protect something very valuable to me: my hearing. I don't think I'm being "clueless" trying to proect something that cannot be repaired.

[kdm]

Originally Posted by dr.sound

We get it. Over and over...."THEY PLAY THE SOUNDTRACK WAY TOO LOUD"

Can't speak for others here, but the problem I am posting about is the theaters' lack of training and quality control, not a failing on the part of the dub stage and mixers. The films we saw with poor (mono) sound were obviously just setup wrong at the projection booth. I hate to see great sound (and cinematic) work get lost in theaters' lack of attention to major quality issues.

The battle for levels, or control of them is another issue that I know has been addressed, and one we all struggle with against external demands from production companies, clients, etc.

I wish we had a theater here similar to the Arclight described by other posters. Might have to try the new Hollywood(?) theater complex next time.

[dr.sound]

Clueless,
It is a SUBJECTIVE Medium. To say "All Movies, or even Most movies are too loud is a very broad statement that ends up making you look indeed "clueless".
How do you know what the speakers are at the Theater you make your judgements at .
Have they been "EQ'd "?
Stop blaming the whole Sound Mixing for Film community.
What do you mix? Isn't it Jazz?
Please give a list of your experience in mixing Film?
Where did these mixes take place?
Was the room "Calibrated"?

Now back to the real topic at hand....

[Jfriah]

All I can say, a fave real-life quote when projectionist was mentioned-to that a film screener sounded too quiet...

"Well, it is in 5.1, so the volume is set at 5.1"

[steveschizoid]

Originally Posted by dr.sound

Clueless,
It is a SUBJECTIVE Medium. To say "All Movies, or even Most movies are too loud is a very broad statement that ends up making you look indeed "clueless".
..

Too much SPL is not subjective.

Objectively speaking, if you aren't careful with your ears as an audio professional, you can expect tinnitus by age 45 (give or take a few years)

Tinnitus is terribly subjective. Usually no one but the person suffering from it can hear it at all.

Blatantly misquoting someone could be also be construed as clueless, especially when it's so easily to correctly quote them.

Originally Posted by Clueless

I wear earplugs because THEY PLAY THE SOUNDTRACK WAY TOO LOUD..

It's funny, the expensive theatres with the best sound tend to do this. I had my earlugs out ready to jam in the ear at a moments notice at The Half Blood Prince today. But the last time I went to the dollar theatres the level didn't bother me as much.

One thing that does annoy me about so many of today's sound track mixes is the ubiquitous subsonic boom. Drama moment....boom! - even when what is happening on screen would not actually be even remotely associated with any low pitched explosion of sound in real life. And the the previews are the worst!

The Half Blood Prince was great by the way, and the sound track was brilliant.

[dr.sound]

Originally Posted by steveschizoid

Too much SPL is not subjective.

Objectively speaking, if you aren't careful with your ears as an audio professional, you can expect tinnitus by age 45 (give or take a few years)

Tinnitus is terribly subjective. Usually no one but the person suffering from it can hear it at all.

Blatantly misquoting someone could be also be construed as clueless, especially when it's so easily to correctly quote them.
SNIP

Steveschizoid (Andy),
This thread was hijacked by "Clueless".
I am very aware of Tinnitus.
By the way, how do YOU determine Too Much SPL? How do you rate "too much"?
As for "blatantly misquouting someone....
Please go ahead and speak your peace. I for one am listening!
If you want to bring up something that you and "Clueless" are interested in talking about then great,
start a new topic and give us your expertise. Until then let's talk about the original subject.
This is a Post Production Forum. Add, contribute or sit on the sidelines, but it's about
Film, Theater and Sound and how it becomes messed up in a Movie theater.

[Thomas W. Bethe]

I went to see Transformers at our local Cinemark theater. The sound was left heavy and WAY TOO LOUD! probably reaching 120 dBSPL at times. Then this last weekend I went to see HP and the sound was FANTASTIC and the 5.1 sounded amazing. Different theater different city. The theater I saw HP in has a bad history with me of playing all their movies in stereo when they are mixed in 5.1 and when I asked the "manager" about it he said that their system is "automatic and plays back exactly what is on the film" The "manager" had not yet started to shave and looked all of 16 but I am sure he had to be at least 18. He told me that "we get complaints all the time about the sound but we have no real control over what our playback system is doing since it is all computer controlled except for the volume level which is controlled by our projectionist and is set in accordance with the guidelines set by our company" .

Most of the "projectionist" looked younger than the "manager" and unless they are flaunting the child labor laws had to be at least 18 years old though they looked like 14 or younger. I guess you get what you pay for. The days of having a union projectionist are long gone and with the rise of the cineplexs run by children one can only get marginal work.

For my niece and I to see the bargain matinee and have some pop corn and a soft drink for her cost $28.00. For that amount of money I could almost buy two DVDs and enjoy them in the privacy of my own home and have the control of the sound be in my hands and that my be what will be happening from now on.

I wonder what would happen if a movie studio exec came by and heard the atrocious sound I have been hearing lately at the cineplexs? Would they say anything or do anything? Or are they so numb to the whole thing that as long as they get their cut they could care less?????

[Sonsey@mac.com]

Originally Posted by Jfriah

All I can say, a fave real-life quote when projectionist was mentioned-to that a film screener sounded too quiet...

"Well, it is in 5.1, so the volume is set at 5.1"

Jeff, I don't know whether to laugh or cry at that! I'll choose laugh, I think...

[steveschizoid]

Originally Posted by dr.sound

Steveschizoid (Andy),
This thread was hijacked by "Clueless".
I am very aware of Tinnitus.
By the way, how do YOU determine Too Much SPL? How do you rate "too much"?
As for "blatantly misquouting someone....
Please go ahead and speak your peace. I for one am listening!
If you want to bring up something that you and "Clueless" are interested in talking about then great,
start a new topic and give us your expertise. Until then let's talk about the original subject.
This is a Post Production Forum. Add, contribute or sit on the sidelines, but it's about
Film, Theater and Sound and how it becomes messed up in a Movie theater.

Well, OK, but you did misquote and misrepresent what clueless had said as opposed to ignoring it. If you felt it was a hijack, perhaps it would have been better to ignore it. Now you've asked me to further explain my post, then admonished me to stay on topic. I truly don't mean to be hostile or difficult, but, which is it?

Furthermore, since, as you said, this thread is

about Film, Theater and Sound and how it becomes messed up in a Movie theater

I am not sure why you would feel clueless or I had hijacked the thread in any way. Turning the volume knob up too far is certainly one way to "mess up " the sound.

[Clueless]

Originally Posted by dr.sound

Clueless,
We get it. Over and over...."THEY PLAY THE SOUNDTRACK WAY TOO LOUD"
What happens when a "Rock band" comes in to mix at your studio?
Clueless?

I apologize to all on this thread to have mistakenly responded to an off-topic question (which I quote above in its entirety). Obviously the answer to the above question is completely irrelevant to the question of what theaters can do to ruin the experience of a movie, including sending signals to the wrong monitors, sending no signals to the right monitors, sending signals that are outside recognized standards (either too high or too low) to the monitors, and, though off-topic to the question of sound, the growing phenomenon that one can no longer expect the visual experience of a movie to actually be in focus. It is perhaps that last aspect--the question of optical focus, that speaks volumes to the overall demise of translation from artistic vision (which I do not question) to studio production (which, as it relates to mastering levels, I have begun to question) to an increasingly questionable customer experience that tells us this: if modern theaters cannot be bothered to deliver a decent visual experience, don't expect much from the sound, either.

Which makes me very sad.

[ggegan]

There is a simple way of addressing the issue of poor quality theaters: don't patronize them, tell your friends not to patronize them and write a letter to the theater management to explain why you and your friends refuse see movies in their theater. Tell them which theaters you will patronize and why. Also, if you go to a theater and the sound is bad, walk out and demand your money back. I have done this several times and have always gotten a refund. Business owners will generally change if they think they are losing income, but if no one clues them in that they suck you can't expect them to figure it out for themselves.

[ruy]

+1 to gary's response.

[Thomas W. Bethe]

Originally Posted by ggegan

There is a simple way of addressing the issue of poor quality theaters: don't patronize them, tell your friends not to patronize them and write a letter to the theater management to explain why you and your friends refuse see movies in their theater. Tell them which theaters you will patronize and why. Also, if you go to a theater and the sound is bad, walk out and demand your money back. I have done this several times and have always gotten a refund. Business owners will generally change if they think they are losing income, but if no one clues them in that they suck you can't expect them to figure it out for themselves.

While I agree with you in principle most of the theater going public is looking for a good time and escapism and could care less about perfect sound. Telling the theater owner that you are not going to attend his shows any more is like trying to bail out the Titanic with a shot glass. So he loses you and a couple of your friends so what he is probably loosing more money when only one person shows up for a show and he still had to project it. The cost for the projectionist and the bulb are not even covered. When I went to see Terminators at 11:30 am on a Sunday at a mall cineplex I was one of only two people in attendance. Nice idea but in today's WALMART world most theater owners would probably not even care since they are looking for quantity not quality.

YMMV

[ggegan]

Originally Posted by Thomas W. Bethe

While I agree with you in principle most of the theater going public is looking for a good time and escapism and could care less about perfect sound. Telling the theater owner that you are not going to attend his shows any more is like trying to bail out the Titanic with a shot glass. So he loses you and a couple of your friends so what he is probably loosing more money when only one person shows up for a show and he still had to project it. The cost for the projectionist and the bulb are not even covered. When I went to see Terminators at 11:30 am on a Sunday at a mall cineplex I was one of only two people in attendance. Nice idea but in today's WALMART world most theater owners would probably not even care since they are looking for quantity not quality.

YMMV

I guess I just believe that the squeaky wheel gets the grease. Everything in my experience tends to support this belief. I would expect it to be especially true if the theater is struggling. THX did a great job of convincing theaters and patrons that quality sound was good for business. Some theater owners may have to be convinced that the opposite is also true: Bad sound is bad for business. In any event, making a stand can't hurt and there is a certain degree of satisfaction that comes from doing so.

[johnlink]

I've recently seen two movies (The Reader and Cheri) at the Paris in New York and on both occasions I found the sound just dreadful. The dialog was difficult to understand, often accompanied by what seemed to be a very short delay and never sounding intimate. The stereo image seemed too narrow. The music generally sounded better than the dialog, but twice, during the movies and during the credits, there was a very unpleasant buildup of bass that at first I thought was the sound of a subway train but later realized was part of the music.

On my first visit to the theater I guessed that the center channel wasn't working properly, and on my second visit I wondered whether the elliptical shape of the front wall, the balcony, and another structure near the ceiling caused the room to have some an uneven frequency response and harsh echos.

Does anyone have any relevant experience at the Paris to share?

John Link

P.S. I just spoke with a manger at the Paris and told her my experience. She said they haven't received any other complaints and that she had watched Cheri in the theater and thought it sounded ok. She offered me a free pass and said that she would look into the problem I reported. I asked her to get back to me and let me know what she found.

[georgia]

Originally Posted by johnlink

I've recently seen two movies (The Reader and Cheri) at the Paris in New York and on both occasions I found the sound just dreadful. The dialog was difficult to understand, often accompanied by what seemed to be a very short delay and never sounding intimate. The stereo image seemed too narrow. The music generally sounded better than the dialog, but twice, during the movies and during the credits, there was a very unpleasant buildup of bass that at first I thought was the sound of a subway train but later realized was part of the music.

On my first visit to the theater I guessed that the center channel wasn't working properly, and on my second visit I wondered whether the elliptical shape of the front wall, the balcony, and another structure near the ceiling caused the room to have some an uneven frequency response and harsh echos.

Does anyone have any relevant experience at the Paris to share?

John Link

P.S. I just spoke with a manger at the Paris and told her my experience. She said they haven't received any other complaints and that she had watched Cheri in the theater and thought it sounded ok. She offered me a free pass and said that she would look into the problem I reported. I asked her to get back to me and let me know what she found.

Auditorium Acoustics and Arch design

interestingly,, some what off topic, but perhaps relevant.... a few extremely well designed theaters, including one that I researched a few years ago. I don't remember the name, but apparently the acoustics were absolutely amazing, and then to increase revenue, the venue changed the seating and by adding a fairly large number of seats in the back, destroyed the acoustics for the want of more money.
so depending on seating and body count the acoustics can and do change.


cheers
geo

[bizzle]

Originally Posted by ggegan

There is a simple way of addressing the issue of poor quality theaters: don't patronize them.

Spot ON.

Why would you give a theater more than a couple chances to get it right? Its not cheap to get into the movies these days, get your money's worth. [dead horse]