Common Bass Mgt tools?

[Brent_in_Sydney]

Hi all,

I've dug around on the forums and it seems that when it comes to bass mgt, the Waves 360 tools are quite common, as are the TASCAM 7.1 system and the Blue sky BMC.
Are there any other methods of bass mgt that are common out there?
- as in, filtering the low end component from the 5.0 channels and adding it to the LFE. Equipment models/manufacturers? Links?

Secondly, I see a lot of TV mix/smaller rooms using ICON without bass management. Just monitoring "discrete" - the LFE to the sub alone.
What's the view on that? Is bass management absolutely crucial in smaller rooms as much as larger rooms? More so? Less so?
Thoughts? Links?

[kk@jamsync.com]

Originally Posted by Brent_in_Sydney

Hi all,

I've dug around on the forums and it seems that when it comes to bass mgt, the Waves 360 tools are quite common, as are the TASCAM 7.1 system and the Blue sky BMC.
Are there any other methods of bass mgt that are common out there?
- as in, filtering the low end component from the 5.0 channels and adding it to the LFE. Equipment models/manufacturers? Links?

Secondly, I see a lot of TV mix/smaller rooms using ICON without bass management. Just monitoring "discrete" - the LFE to the sub alone.
What's the view on that? Is bass management absolutely crucial in smaller rooms as much as larger rooms? More so? Less so?
Thoughts? Links?

Geez, here we are in 2009 and these questions still are around. I remember being a demo droid for Digi at AES when they premiered 5.1. I arrived to find the simple LFE--->sub setup and set about frantically fliltering out 80 Hz and below on the main channels and re-directing that to channels that could be mixed with the LFE channel...and then figuring out delay compensation because ADC came later!

Simply put...if you want to hear real, low bass from the mains (i.e. synths, SFX, etc.), yes...you have to have bass management on a sub/sat system. I'd definitely argue with anyone who says they have "full bandwidth" sats and only use the sub for LFE. I've *never* seen a "full bandwidth" speaker that will pump out low end like a sub and getting the x-over right in the bass management system plus calibrating correctly is what makes the difference between a small-room mix that will play in a larger theatre and one that simply goes out of control. I've mixed several indie films and I've heard them in huge state-of-the art cal'd theatres as well as depressing small fests where you're lucky if the film plays through an LCD screen with computer speakers added on (after having been pretty much trashed by whoever decided to add the fest's intro to your film and "re-edit" it in a low-level commercial editor..feh).

Anyway, while I've seen the video simply trashed in some cases (and perfectly repro'd in others), I usually was happy about the audio because I would mix in a cal'd room so that spaces which had even an inkling of how to run a theatre would sound OK.

OTOH, when I demo'd 5.1 for Digi, I was miserable because I spent the first day dealing with re-cal'ing their little sub/sat system after I had created a filter setup for 5.1.

The big problem with sending everything to the LFE *channel* rather than having a bass management system for *monitoring* is that when you downmix from 5.1 to 2.0, the LFE is DELETED. Gone is everything below 80HZ or 120HZ or whatever you decided you were sending to the LFE. Worse, if you play back your 5.1 *mix* in a properly bass-managed environment (and you didn't filter out bass on the mains and re-direct it to the sub), you will be swamped with the bass you weren't hearing in your little sub/sat room because your teensy sats either couldn't produce anything below 150Hz OR they were so crappy that the sats themselves were distorted by deep bass 2nd harmonic distortion producing a spurious perception of bass.

Bleagh.

[danijel]

Originally Posted by kk@jamsync.com

I'd definitely argue with anyone who says they have "full bandwidth" sats and only use the sub for LFE.

Even if you had true full bandwidth speakers, in a small room you still want to play low frequencies from one carefully chosen point, instead of fighting the standing waves from several sources.

[Andrew Mottl]

Probably not what you are looking for, and vst for Windows only, but I've found it to be very useful (expecially in Nuendo's control room inserts, thus leaving "proper" discrete mix stems).

Bass Manager VST Plug-in

[charles maynes]

Originally Posted by kk@jamsync.com

Geez, here we are in 2009 and these questions still are around.
Bleagh.

that was one of your best posts ever KK....

are you going to be in town in a couple weeks- I am gonna be round- it would nice to visit....

[originalscottyg]

I use a Genelec system: 8050s across the front, 8040s for surround, and a 7070A sub. 7070A sub has built in bass management with a fixed 85Hz crossover. There is a remote available to bypass bass redirection and switch the LFE +10dB on and off. The LFE low-pass filter is switchable between 85 and 120Hz. I also have the Waves 360 bundle, so if I needed to monitor with different cross-over points, etc., I can bypass the hardware management and use the Waves plugin.

[Brent_in_Sydney]

Thanks all, I appreciate the confirmation. It's just not common practice in smalls rooms over here.
Personally Im not a huge fan of waves, so I'd avoid recommending their 360 bundle as a solution for this.

What other options are out there, is there anything else being used as a common solution?

Also - I note that there are quite a few different crossover points that folks refer to. Thomlinson Holmon in 5.1 SS up and running specifies a 50Hz crossover point but the Blue sky is fixed at 80 (from memory) and the tascam is 120 and folks in here are using both 80ish and 120...is there any "best practice" with the crossover point, or is it more a case of judge by your room, your speakers and the results you get to flatten the response of your room?

[Gohanto]

I find it hard to believe Holman would recommend 50Hz since THX (which he's the first two letters of) specify 80Hz on all systems (assuming the sub and sats both work to that frequency cleanly and evenly).

I tend to use 80Hz since I find that I localize effects much above that, but I've also got my room treated with bass trapping and correctly positioned speakers. If you've got more bass issues between 80-120 Hz from where your sats are positioned (since they're positioned for best imaging which is rarely the best location for bass like your sub is placed for), then setting the crossover frequency higher can be a better way to go since it's better to know what the bass is doing than have that little bit of extra imaging down low.

Quick example, if your front speakers are placed 3 ft away from the front wall, that wall is going to cause a cancellation right at 94Hz. So setting your sub above that would be a good idea (or have a thick bass trap behind it would be a better solution, but I digress)

[kk@jamsync.com]

Originally Posted by charles maynes

that was one of your best posts ever KK....

are you going to be in town in a couple weeks- I am gonna be round- it would nice to visit....

Thanks for the kind words. I'd love to take you and yours out to lunch, if you have time.
Just give a buzz a day in advance so I can get back to Nashville if I'm at the farm in east TN.

Looking forward to meeting you!

[kk@jamsync.com]

Originally Posted by danijel

Even if you had true full bandwidth speakers, in a small room you still want to play low frequencies from one carefully chosen point, instead of fighting the standing waves from several sources.

Good point. That's the reason a sub/sat system with *moveable* dual subs is better in a small room than humongous "full bandwidth" speakers.

[charles maynes]

Originally Posted by kk@jamsync.com

Thanks for the kind words. I'd love to take you and yours out to lunch, if you have time.
Just give a buzz a day in advance so I can get back to Nashville if I'm at the farm in east TN.

Looking forward to meeting you!

we are going to be down in Columbia- we dont have to meet in Nashville...if it is more convenient....

[kk@jamsync.com]

Originally Posted by charles maynes

we are going to be down in Columbia- we dont have to meet in Nashville...if it is more convenient....

I'm flexible, so let's just wing it. Columbia is about 30 min west of Nashville, I think. It's been a few years since I was there, but I've been meaning to go back for awhile now. Middle TN has had a lot of rain this spring, so it's really lush and green. Although we're starting to hit the dry season here, I'll bet it will still be in good shape in a couple of weeks.

If you haven't been to Nashville in a few years, though, you might want to check out the changes. Then again, a lot of us wonder why they put those nekkid dancing statues in the center of the rotary at the end of Music Row. It was kind of like putting a bronze of Johnny Cash at the Vatican...