HBO's "The Wire" mixing question

[juniorhifikit]

I've been watching HBO's "The Wire" on DVD in surround, and noticed there is nothing in the center channel - no dialog. Just curious if anyone here worked on this and if this was a deliberate decision. And if so, why?

[Henchman]

Sounds like a bad DVD versioning issue to me.

[juniorhifikit]

Hey Mark!

Upon closer inspection, it turns I wasn't listening in surround, but stereo. I didn't see that the little display on my receiver was showing stereo and not surround.

[Henchman]

Originally Posted by juniorhifikit

Hey Mark!

Upon closer inspection, it turns I wasn't listening in surround, but stereo. I didn't see that the little display on my receiver was showing stereo and not surround.

Hahahahahaha.
The infamous UE problem. (User error).

[iluvatar]

I realize that dialog in the center channel is the standard, but am I the only one that prefers having the dialog come out of the L & R speakers? Maybe it's because that's what I'm used to (I don't mix film), but dialog in the Center always seems a little disjointed to me. For a while, I thought it was because any sort of home environment with surround typically has the C above or below the image, so the vertical placement is off. But I get the same feeling (though to a lesser degree) in theaters.

-Dan.

[neilwilkes]

For my money, the audio mix on this series (all 5 seasons) has been nothing short of exemplary. I particularly like the absence of all so-called "atmospheric music".
Bliss.
Hollywood should learn from this - I understand the plotlines, and do not need throbbing violins or dodgy pianos to tell me how I should "feel" about a particular scene, and with current DVD releases, I get the definite impression the mixes used (in 5.1) are the theatrical mixes, often untouched, and as such utterly unsuited to the media. I often find that the "music" is horrendously loud in comparison, and have bailed on countless movies purely because of intrusive levels of so-called music.

Congratulations & kudos to all involved at HBO with this impressive series.
The audio really should win awards.

[foxy]

Hey Neil,

just watching series 4 of "the wire" now and really have to agree with you so much. it is staggering that a TV show can sound this good, this different. love the fact that the only music in the show is incidental music (big sounds coming from cars driving by etc).
such atmosphere is created with heavy background tracks that give you a claustrophobic feel of the city.
also the production sound is so good, anyone Know about the production recording of it?
all of this and it's a great show too! trying to slowly savor series 4 because i know after 5 that's it!
cheers,
hugh.

[ggegan]

I myself like the series, but I give the sound a B- at best, particularly the dialog. It may be combination of the urban slang and bad production as much as the mix, but too much dialogue is unintelligible.

[henryrobinett]

Yeah, it was hard to hear the dialogue, but that was by design, I'm certain of it. The street language was not supposed to be understood by average middle america. This was the realism of it. Slang is really supposed to be an exclusive club language. It can't be exclusive if everyone understands it. The specifics of the dialogue is less important than the situations.

This was the most brilliant thing ever done for TV, as far as I can tell.

[pechnatunk]

I've just started watching The Wire after watching all of Deadwood and some Six feet under .
There is something similarly amazing with the sound going on - to the point where I think I could pick an HBO series just by listening to it.
Does anyone know if there are any trademark tricks or techniques to their production?

[henryrobinett]

I just think there's an artistic viewpoint of making things more realistic. I think they're assuming 80% of everything that passes us is not heard or comprehended, in real life, -- even when most could be. Why assume, in a movie, that every whisper, every piece of dialogue has to be recorded to be played back loud and direct? Life just isn't like that. It's frustrating, but I get the point. At least that's the point I get, intended or not.

[Key]

They made a deliberate decision to go for realism with the sound design on that show. One thing I noticed is that with the exception of the montage scenes every sound has a source. There are no abstract sounds coming from nowhere like a soundtrack.

And yeah I do agree there is just something great about the execution of the HBO shows back then. Just a lack of the fancy editing and flash that most of the modern Network shows use. Very simple but effective.

I agree with iluvatar about the center channel. For me the imaging of the L and R can not be beat with the center channel. I understand the center will add more coverage for more people but I find in these situations I still prefer the phantom center in most setups.

[Jfriah]

Originally Posted by ggegan

I myself like the series, but I give the sound a B- at best, particularly the dialog. It may be combination of the urban slang and bad production as much as the mix, but too much dialogue is unintelligible.

Gary, ever watch "The Shield"? Thoughts on THAT dialogue?

-Jeff

[gmarinov]

Maybe the fact that little is glorified sound-wise on The Wire makes it all different and more pleasant?

[ggegan]

The problem with unintelligible dialog is that it takes you out of the movie. You have no way of knowing whether what you missed was important or not. Every time I turn to the person sitting beside me and ask "what did he say?", I miss something else as well. On a DVD you can rewind and play it again, but that totally destroys the flow of the story.

I have no problem with bare or realistic sound tracks, but dialogue for important characters should be intelligible or it shouldn't be there. The story is in the script and the dialogue. If you can't understand it, it diminishes the story.

I've never seen "The Shield", Jeff. I don't watch much TV other than The News Hour, Washington Week in Review and a few other programs on PBS. I don't have cable or satellite, so I don't get HBO or any of the other premium channels. Occasionally I will rent DVDs of a show I'm curious about, like The Wire.

[Jfriah]

I'd suggest grabbing a DVD of any season of "The Shield" (obviously, earlier seasons were rougher sounding). Very 'reality show'-ish. But still one of my faves.

Now *I* feel obligated to check out "the wire."

-Jeff

(and, Gary, you're better off without TV, hahahaha...at least I cut mine in the summer months. That's a step.)

[Key]

I think you are making an arbitrary rule ggegan. I actually didn't have any difficulty with The Wire's dialogue at all. But at the same time these HBO shows like The Wire and Deadwood are not made to be easy pills to swallow. The Wire was a breeze compared to the way Deadwood would mashup Elizabethan era English with modern slang.

The Wire also had a rule not to use flashbacks - which are used is most shows as a way of second guessing your audiences attention span. It was by design a linear moving plot so if you missed it you indeed had to go back and refresh yourself on the episodes prior. HBO will repeat an episode countless times during the week it is premiered. People would rewatch these episodes 2 , 3 or more times to make sure they caught every important detail. These are Novels come to life not 5cent pulp fiction so some subtext should be expected.

[jeremyglover]

Originally Posted by ggegan

I myself like the series, but I give the sound a B- at best, particularly the dialog. It may be combination of the urban slang and bad production as much as the mix, but too much dialogue is unintelligible.

i find this in general watching american movies/tv..

i'm on season 2, great show although i like mad men better!

[TVPostSound]

The problem with unintelligible dialog is that it takes you out of the movie. You have no way of knowing whether what you missed was important or not. Every time I turn to the person sitting beside me and ask "what did he say?", I miss something else as well. On a DVD you can rewind and play it again, but that totally destroys the flow of the story.

Wow, thanks Gary, I didnt want to say anything. I thought I was getting hard of hearing after doing too much reality TV!!!

They (the reality EPs) want to hear every whisper.

[Henchman]

There is absolutely no excuse for bad or un-intelligble dialog.
I've seen it in TV shows and major movies.
From experience, I know it's simply bad or lazy mixing, pure and simple.
There are numerouse ways to make even mumbled dialog intelligble.

[slipdiskdave]

The Wire is mixed (and sound designed on a few episodes, I believe) by the incredible Andy Kris. Wonderful mixer.

[Jazzooo]

hey, TV--thumbs up on Top Chef Masters! We watch the regular version, but Masters was far more fun, less bitchy and more like watching masters do their thing. PLus I'd eaten at Rick Bayless' places in Chicago so we were rooting for him.

My wife and I loved the Wire, but about four shows in we gave up and watched with closed captions. I didn't think it was superbly mixed at all. You can say 'It was mixed to sound realistic,' but I was far more interested in it than I was in reality, so I actually wanted to hear what was going on.

[pechnatunk]

I haven't had trouble hearing and following the dialogue at all.
I like how the bg seems to be more of a collage of lots of small sound effects rather than an actual field recording (you could say the fact I notice this means it hasn't been well executed - but I like it).
In general the sfx and bg seem more prominent and I like how a lot of the "walla" is discernable and somewhere between walla and dialogue.
Maybe it's the lack of soundtrack but there are moments where the dialgue stops and we're left with just bg of the city giving us a break in the story for a moment.
I guess all these things could make the dialogue seem soft - but I think that's why I like it.

[slipdiskdave]

Being from the area, I can tell you unequivocally, that "The Wire" perfectly captures Baltimore both visually AND aurally! A town with a lot of heart and character, but definitely not a town you want to get lost in!

[Jfriah]

Originally Posted by slipdiskdave

Being from the area, I can tell you unequivocally, that "The Wire" perfectly captures Baltimore both visually AND aurally! A town with a lot of heart and character, but definitely not a town you want to get lost in!

Heard the same thing from a friend just last night who used to live there. He says "boy they sure got that city..."

[juniorhifikit]

Originally Posted by Jfriah

Heard the same thing from a friend just last night who used to live there. He says "boy they sure got that city..."

My brother-in-law lives there. In one episode, they were calling in a murder on the street he actually lives on (he kinda lives in the 'hood).

Love the show and the production. Kudos to all involved.

[juniorhifikit]

Originally Posted by Henchman

There is absolutely no excuse for bad or un-intelligble dialog.
I've seen it in TV shows and major movies.
From experience, I know it's simply bad or lazy mixing, pure and simple.
There are numerouse ways to make even mumbled dialog intelligble.

unless you just run out of time!

[gmarinov]

In an interview Simon mentions about one particular shot that he realised was not working. The camera was going up until reaching the face of the character on screen, just in time for their line. He describes that as feeling artificial and taking away from the realism of the production as (in his view) the camera is not supposed to always be on time for (and especially anticipating) everything that's said and done in the film.

I reckon the same follows for dialogue being unintelligible at times. Only difference, you can't hear anyone saying "sorry, say that again" in the series

[Henchman]

Originally Posted by juniorhifikit

unless you just run out of time!

BTW, in no way did I want to suggest that the mix on the Wire is bad, or that Andy Kris is by any means lazy.
I haven't seen the show.
My statement was more a general statement.

[Sean L]

Originally Posted by henryrobinett

I just think there's an artistic viewpoint of making things more realistic. I think they're assuming 80% of everything that passes us is not heard or comprehended, in real life, -- even when most could be. Why assume, in a movie, that every whisper, every piece of dialogue has to be recorded to be played back loud and direct? Life just isn't like that. It's frustrating, but I get the point. At least that's the point I get, intended or not.

Yes Yes I agree once you accept this aesthetic and dont immediately assume it's just poor dialogue recording then you can really enjoy not understanding!
having said that are we sure this is what they were going for??