HBO's "The Wire" mixing question

[gainreduction]

Originally Posted by iluvatar

I realize that dialog in the center channel is the standard, but am I the only one that prefers having the dialog come out of the L & R speakers?

Working with music I have absolutely zero experience from post so I have no idea waht I´m talking about...

Having seen the average surround setup in the average home when visiting friends I would never put dialogue in the center channel. It´s way too important ! In many cases the center speaker in a typical cheap home setup is placed where ever and can even be of crappy quality compared to the LR speakers. So phantom center should be safe and most times better.

[Jfriah]

Absolutely not wanting to flame-on here, but this post WILL get commented on by others, so...

Originally Posted by gainreduction

Working with music I have absolutely zero experience from post so I have no idea waht I´m talking about...

Having seen the average surround setup in the average home when visiting friends I would never put dialogue in the center channel. It´s way too important ! In many cases the center speaker in a typical cheap home setup is placed where ever and can even be of crappy quality compared to the LR speakers. So phantom center should be safe and most times better.

Wow, absolutely no slight to you, gainreduction, but you said it yourself:

Originally Posted by gainreduction

Working with music I have absolutely zero experience from post so I have no idea waht I´m talking about...

I don't mix for (sorry, correcting my rude comment) "average home listeners". If one can't do proper research and/or understand why speakers are placed in certain spots, one doesn't DESERVE to get proper sound! Hahaha... making fun of it in the best way possible, not meaning to offend.

I've seen so many cases of no center channel, no surrounds with a 5.1 amp, center channel on top of one of the other fronts on-end, center channel on floor, SURROUNDS ON FLOOR IN FRONT ('didn't want to run cables across my floor'), SURROUNDS ON FLOOR AND BEHIND FURNITURE IN REAR ... mixed speaker brands/sizes...

I'll say again: I don't mix for anything but a standard setup. And, sorry, there's a whole lotta reasons the dialogue GOES in the center channel. Not the least being: it is important.

Phantom center 'could' be safe, and will NEVER sound better. (sorry...unless you have a mismatched center channel with a blown tweeter that is sitting on the floor behind a desk facing the wall)

Peace.

[Key]

Jfriah you are making blanket statements here. Claiming a center will always sound better is just plain wrong considering that most L and R speakers have a MUCH better frequency response than those dedicated limited range centers. You are trying to objectify something that is subjective.

[iluvatar]

Originally Posted by Jfriah

Phantom center 'could' be safe, and will NEVER sound better.

I don't know about that. One of the things for me is vertical positioning. Unless you've got an acoustically transparent projection screen w/ the center speakers positioned behind it (really, how many home users have that?), then your center speaker (and thus, all of your dialog) is going to be either above or below the image. L&R speakers, OTOH, are easier to place at the same height as the screen, so the phantom center appears to be coming from the same vertical plane.

This may be just my personal preference, but I actually prefer the horizontal positioning of phantom center. It bothers me when I watch a film and the character is on the left side of the screen, but the sound is coming from the center. I don't experience this with "phantom" center. The better the center channel system, the less difference I notice, but even in theaters with good sound, I experience a bit of a disconnect.

-Dan.

[Henchman]

I'm sorry, but I'll go ahead and make a blanket statement, just as jfriah did.
Except I won't sugarcoat it

Anyone suggesting you use a phantom center for Dialog is on some serious crack, and hasn't a clue WTF they're talking about.

[gainreduction]

Originally Posted by Henchman

Anyone suggesting you use a phantom center for Dialog is on some serious crack, and hasn't a clue WTF they're talking about.

Well, I did mention I don´t know what I´m talking about.

Seriously, I´m just thinking out loud and do not mean to start a fight here. My point of view is from music where the main objective is to get mixes to translate on as many systems as possible, be that iPod earbuds, clock radios, car stereos or high end studio monitors. Needless to say, it´s all one big compromise. We make the product for the consumer and thus gotta be prepared that the consumer knows nothing about audio and speaker placement.

My thinking is that how can a surround mix possibly translate well to a home system where the center speaker is on the floor, under the tv bench next to the sub (´coz the wife said it was too ugly to hang on the wall) and the rear speakers are hidden somewhere behind the sofa ? It can´t, there is no way.

I do realize that in a very good environment the center speaker is very important and can really help bring out key elements, and dialogue in particular. I´ve been in such rooms, and especially one where two screens for PT provided a perfect spot for the center speaker, thus eliminating the horizontal placement issue. Sure, sounded absolutely great. Same thing in the typical, messed up home theatre - I have a hard time believing the dialogue would come across better from the possibly out-of-place and possibly crappy quality center speaker than from the phantom center of LR since those usually are somewhat in place and of at least decent quality.

So I guess I could just re-phrase everything to a question: What do you do to make your 5.1 mixes translate well to typical consumer setups ?

Again, I come in peace and hope to learn something. Flame away if you want.

[gmarinov]

Originally Posted by gainreduction

My point of view is from music where the main objective is to get mixes to translate on as many systems as possible, be that iPod earbuds, clock radios, car stereos or high end studio monitors.

i guess it starts from the notion that film sound is not the same as music. for instance music mixes in surround are better off with little in the center channel, and sub sound should be at a minimum (if not none). surround music is pretty much 4.0.

not the same for film and anything w/ dialog. i'll amuse everyone and suggest that we call the channels L D R Ls Rs LFE (D for Dialog) :D then it's down to the listener's preference if they want to have dialog coming from under the fridge.

[Jfriah]

Originally Posted by iluvatar

This may be just my personal preference, but I actually prefer the horizontal positioning of phantom center. It bothers me when I watch a film and the character is on the left side of the screen, but the sound is coming from the center. I don't experience this with "phantom" center. The better the center channel system, the less difference I notice, but even in theaters with good sound, I experience a bit of a disconnect.

Hey Dan,

Prefacing my post with, again, not intending to flame or engage in a fight (as the other poster graciously said he wasn't trying to start one); this is more about education and points-of-view.

re: personal preferences,

TV mixing rooms should still have proper speaker positioning. My main room I do most smaller 5.1 projects in does not, but I'm able to flip the C-channel speaker upside down so the L/R and C tweeters are about 1.5" difference in height. Same speakers, same response. Same height imaging, IMO.

If watching a film bothers you when a character is on the left side of the screen and voice comes from the C---I have to ask: how long have you been mixing tv/film post? Have you ever tried SITTING on the left side of a theater and listened to a stereo mix and always had the voices coming 'from the left' because that's how the panning is working? Sitting on the left and someone passes to the right and talks? Not going to sound right to you.

C-channel DIA, yes, agreed, is 'the standard'. Some mixers take liberties (have you seen District 9???) with positioning, others are very firm. Then you have to think about translation to home-viewing from theatrical-wide panning when images that are on the screen might well be OFF someone's television screen at home.

Originally Posted by Key

Jfriah you are making blanket statements here. Claiming a center will always sound better is just plain wrong considering that most L and R speakers have a MUCH better frequency response than those dedicated limited range centers. You are trying to objectify something that is subjective.

Key, talking about making 'blanket statement', you are saying most L and R speakers WHERE have a 'much better frequency response than...'? What is subjective about having matched speakers in a proper home listening environment if you care about your audio? If you're going to listen in any way critically or for enjoyment, you should put thought and effort into matching your fronts.

If you wanted to rephrase your statement to something like "most home users already have music speakers as their L/R speakers when they get a surround system and either don't have the money to spend or choose to keep the Left/Rights as their mains and, thus, adding a C-Channel after the fact will likely result in a non-matched, lesser-frequency-handling, smaller speaker that they want to set on the top of their television because of space concerns" I might be agreeing with you.

By the way, my blanket statement you are referring to was:

Phantom center 'could' be safe, and will NEVER sound better. (sorry...unless you have a mismatched center channel with a blown tweeter that is sitting on the floor behind a desk facing the wall)

I didn't say "a center channel will always sound better than a L or R." I believe what I said was phantom center will never sound better than a C. (phantom is phantom and is neither left nor right; it is 'created' by both in the absence of a C)



-Jeff

[Jfriah]

Originally Posted by gainreduction

...do not mean to start a fight here... come in peace and hope to learn something. Flame away if you want.

Fair enough. Agreed.

Originally Posted by gainreduction

We (in music--ed.) make the product for the consumer and thus gotta be prepared that the consumer knows nothing about audio and speaker placement.

My thinking is that how can a surround mix possibly translate well to a home system where the center speaker is on the floor, under the tv bench next to the sub (´coz the wife said it was too ugly to hang on the wall) and the rear speakers are hidden somewhere behind the sofa ? It can´t, there is no way. ... What do you do to make your 5.1 mixes translate well to typical consumer setups ?

Simple answer from myself: I said earlier I don't mix projects for the lowest common denominator / "person who doesn't know enough or doesn't have access to the funds or the space to outfit oneself with a matched system and put the speakers where they belong.' I don't. And you music guys are right. You said you have to prepare for the consumer with different speakers, small speakers, earbuds, blown speakers, speakers behind furniture, etc. Yes. And you traditionally mix on two speakers for your projects, whatever the type/range.

We normally mix on 5 plus a subwoofer. Lowest-common-denominate that one. I can't be bothered to "guess" where someone might hide their surround speakers or C-speakers or if they have a subwoofer...or if they have 2 or 4 or 5 speakers! I always try, where time allows, to make a reference DVD to take home, and always check bass management and downmix, listen to mono, etc. I can't possibly try to mix for every consumer's possible number of speaker and type combinations.

My first concern is mixing for the environment the project's main release is in. The client doesn't normally care if the home viewers have x or y. Nonetheless, I have mixed way more TV than theatrical and this thread was initially about a TV show. So I won't talk auditorium vs home anymore.

Any mixer always has to check different references, large speaker, small speaker, stereo, mono, loud, quiet, full 5.1 vs. bass managed/subwoofer. That's part of the gig. I recall an early mixing project when I was in a room without proper LF reproduction and there was a barge going down a river so I cut in FX. Saw it on TV at home and was aghast! Went back to work the day after and realized I hadn't send proper bussing to my RTA (frequency analyzer for those not in-the-know) and saw a huge spike at 31Hz on the mix stem. The barge fx had the spike in it.

On another project there was a knock at the door which would have been behind the character onscreen and the person outside the door said "hello?" Where does the door knock and voice get routed?

In the end, Wikipedia that font-of-knowledge gives us the following:
Phantom center refers to the way human ears detect the location of a sound; straight ahead, above, or behind the head. Since humans have one ear on each side of the head, sound in aforementioned locations creates an equal sensation in each ear. Thus, based only on hearing, the sound can be determined to be in one of said locations, as opposed as to the left, or to the right.

Of course, we all know Wikipedia is not always 100% accurate... the way ears detect location of a sound isn't called phantom center...

To those who prefer a phantom center, are you talking about stereo mixes where all information is in either left or right or both or are you talking about the phantom center creation from a 5.1 / multi-channel mix where the encoding/decoding is telling the L/R who gets to play C-information louder or quieter at any given time and leads to steering?

And, ok, fair enough, I'll ask it: how many speakers do you think we need to provide 'good-sounding' mixes? 1? 2? 5? 10?

-Jeff

[Jfriah]

And I'm the first to say: "getting O-T!"

[ruy]

with al due respect and regardless of personal listening preferences, the standard for profesional film and tv sound mixes is to place on screen dialogue and most diegetic sounds in the center channel. several explanations for this can be found in other threads, equipment manuals, articles and books about sound post-production.

getting back to "the wire", the original poster already answered his own question. i think they did a fantastic job with sound, specially the way they treat and place the source music.