dialog editing interface

[cubivore]

hey everyone,

i've been fortunate enough to live off of recording VO for 6-7 years now and a became a hardcore dialog editor as a result. i hope this is not one of those live fast, die young areas of audio, but editing really burns out my body lately. what is the lifespan of a normal editor? do the really experienced ones have cyborg arms and hands?

over the years i've made several adjustments to the workspace to combat various body ailments - exercise, diet, posture, etc. but now i'm looking at one thing that just never feels right - the mouse. the best solution thus far has been a trackball. for me it's the kensington expert mouse. it's been working pretty good, but i keep wondering if there's something better that will allow me to work longer without having to take breaks all the time. if things get bad i'll wear a brace, especially if i'm working on an endurance project. lately, all i've been working on is audiobooks, well more like 80% of my work. all i'm doing is the editing and at most i'm good for 4-6 hours per day. sometimes i can pull off more hours by working shorter blocks of time with bigger breaks inbetween.

anyway, i've been doing this volume of editing for a few a years now and if i'm lucky there will be more to come, assuming my arms still work. have any of you found a happy medium for your input mechanism? i have been thinking of trying something like a graphics tablet, particularly the cintiq. i also thought of something crazy like a flight sim stick cos there are tons of buttons that could hopefully be mapped for my basics like cut, trim, and zooms. the grips involved with those two options seem more natural and potentially less fatiguing. i'm curious to hear what has worked best for everyone.

i would guess most of you probably get to move to other types of audio post work more frequently so editing is not all you're doing everyday. that's one good way to not get fatigued, but that's not my case.

i bet guys in hollywood have magical wii controller that with a wave of the hand will trim, denoise, and add golden sparkle to every region.

[jahtao]

Damn man I feel for you!

I have one of these:
Amazon.com: Evoluent VM3R2-RSB Vertical Mouse 3: Electronics
Quite expensive (for a mouse) but worth it!

That, plus the built in trackball on my PT pro control has saved me. The built in thing is not the best input mechanism by any stretch but it's easiest on my body (shoulder mostly)

Others will tell you tablet. Get em all if you are as bad as it sounds.

Get a really cheap assistant to farm out some of the work to. Break the job down into production line like components and start him/her on the most idiot proof task (like tracklay or something) and build it up from there. Get one from your local music tech school, ask a professor for someone smart and pay them minimum wage.

After taking 6months off to do some traveling I could barely do half an hour of editing, so I don't think a long break is the answer. Now I do 60hr weeks no problem

[eastwestaudio]

+1 for vertical mouse. been using one for a few years now and it does help. most people who sit down at my desk though look at it pretty funny.

-greg-

[hummer]

I also do a ton of dialogue editing, and also experienced wrist pain with the kensington after years of use. It is a great product, but it forces your hand to be in a very awkward position (ask any piano player).

I posted a similar question to this on the DUC a few months ago, and got a lot of responses recommending Wacom tablets. I picked one up, and I couldn't be happier. It took a few weeks to really get the hang of it, and for a while, I thought for sure it wasn't going to work out. But I hooked up my Kensington the other day just to see how it felt, and I can't imagine going back.

The one thing I miss is horizontal scrolling in PT, but I've become quite accustomed to living without it. I also have the buttons on the pen set to vertical zoom, which is great.

Good luck.

[santacore]

I feel your pain. Whenever I record games, my hands are killing me by day 3. Recording, editing, and naming a 1000+ loops a week, really gets to you.

On a friends recommendation(thanks Chris!) I've been using the Logitech MX Revolution. It replaced the Kensington trackball that I struggled with for years. Now I have the programmable keys that I want in a more ergonomic form.

You might also try alternating devices every other day. I used to do that and it did help a bit.

[Frank S.]

I use this, but it's not for Pro Tools. Fairlight Constellation "Binnacle" Editor Panel. I haven't had any issues with pain or discomfort.



My Pro Tools friends tend to just use a normal mouse or trackball, but I just can't see that being comfortable for extended periods of time.

[nathand]

Originally Posted by Frank S.

I use this, but it's not for Pro Tools. Fairlight Constellation "Binnacle" Editor Panel. I haven't had any issues with pain or discomfort.



My Pro Tools friends tend to just use a normal mouse or trackball, but I just can't see that being comfortable for extended periods of time.

+1

There is no comparison.

[Jfriah]

Kensington Expert Mouse Pro trackball user for about 13 years or so now.

I guess it is whatever you get used to using. I went to it out of necessity (working on a console and needed my input device in front of me, trackball could just 'sit on the fader board') and haven't gone back.

Just wait until they get the touch screen monitors happening... I tell ya, I've already gone and reached for a region on my monitor twice now in the past 6 months or so. Then I realize "it is time to go home...I'm tired..."


-Jeff

[Jfriah]

Originally Posted by hummer

Wacom tablets. I picked one up, and I couldn't be happier.

I really need to try one---just for the 'fun' of it. But in my limited use in my own Photoshop/graphics work from time to time... I found it a little cumbersome, in terms of sensitivity, etc.

I'll need to play with it.

[cubivore]

hey everyone, thanks for the replies!

frank, that thing looks ridiculous with a price to match i'm sure!

i'm curious about those who are using tablets. i'm assuming you still need your keyboard nearby? there are some keys i still needs like play (lol), undo, split, Q, W, tab, and i used opt+shift+scroll ring for zooming. i have cut and trim mapped to buttons on the trackball.

it seems like the intuos 4 has some programmable buttons on the side with an interesting wheel thingy, but the size of those would displace my keyboard. i just assume you can never do without the kb?

the evoluent seems one of the better ergonomic solutions, but maybe too little features. also mousing in general is what moved me to a trackball to reduce movement.

so far my favorite idea is get an assistant! hahaha. i just don't think i could afford it though.

[philper]

Any method or tool is hard on your hands after a lot of work, our bodies were just not designed to do that kind of repetitive work day in and day out. By all means get whatever interface/mouse/tablet seems good to you, but don't stop taking breaks every few hours if you want to keep doing this work for many more years. I often ice my right (trackball) hand during the day as well to get the swelling to go down, this seems to help a lot. With a trackball like Kensington, it's important to make sure that your hand/wrist and forearm are lined up with each other in your normal working position.

Philip Perkins

[Brent Hahn]

Originally Posted by philper

With a trackball like Kensington, it's important to make sure that your hand/wrist and forearm are lined up with each other in your normal working position.

Philip Perkins

For me, it's also very important that the trackball and keyboard are on the same plane, ideally on a pullout shelf approx. 26" high. That's the height the thin, curvy Mac keyboards are ergonomically designed for. It amazes me how people can be expected to edit for hours on end at, say, a Control 24 in an Argosy console with a keyboard and trackball plopped on top. Torture.

[Bill@AudioVision]

After spending 15 years with Fairlight controllers and editing 4 complete Audio Bibles (72 hours of finished production each) as well as hundreds of other projects, I can sit all day and edit with out any fatigue to my hands. My butt's another story...
Anyway, it's a 'two-fisted' technique that works best and IMHO is very similar to playing a keyboard instrument. It's also very fast... when you have projects the size of Bibles, you have to go FAST.
I have done some editing in a PT LE with a track ball (MS Trackball Explorer) and in just a few minutes, my right hand is either numb or sore.
Biggest reason for me to go Fairlight was edit speed followed closely by sound quality and reliability.

[georgia]

my first 5 years of heavy editing on a mouse gave me a really bad case of carpel tunnel.
I had to completely stop for a while. Over the last 10 years I've use a Kensington expert track ball as my primary tool. I also switch out to a pen/tablet or a mouse once in a while to just do a change up.

cheers
geo

[Jussi]

Check also your (conventional) mouse tracking speed. I'm amazed how many of my colleagues have very slow tracking speed resulting in wrist moving back and forward all the time. And they have to keep lifting the mouse as well. I set up my tracking speed to (near) maximum and my wrist hardly moves. Never had any problems. Maybe I'm lucky?

+1 for Fairlight.

[CottageLunch]

+1 for Fairlight
I liked the MFK controller so much I dropped one in the middle of my console (DPC2). Then I liked that so much I bought a Prodigy 2 on a hunch and I love that beast. Amek faders that feel like a million buck and the MFK right there in the middle. Tried Nuendo and Protools but I keep going back.

[Wasabi Devil]

Hey Cubivore,
I've been editing audiobooks for the past 12+ years
I use soundBlade, and find it to be a very well thought out, intuitive program for editing. It's a bit of a learning curve, especially if you have never done any source/destination editing, but it's pretty rare that I move my mouse anywhere other than the waveform I'm working on - all my moves are keystrokes. I also have an expert mouse, and my arms are fine.
-Dan

[Dallas Taylor]

Originally Posted by Bill@AudioVision

Biggest reason for me to go Fairlight was edit speed followed closely by sound quality and reliability.

Sound quality? How would a Fairlight system sound better than a Pro Tools system?

[Brent Hahn]

Back in the mid-90's, (Bill's 15 years ago), I don't think there was any question that a stock PT system with 888 convertors didn't sound as good as a Fairlight.

[mics]

Originally Posted by Brent Hahn

Back in the mid-90's, (Bill's 15 years ago), I don't think there was any question that a stock PT system with 888 convertors didn't sound as good as a Fairlight.

Still doesn't!

[Matti]

If I had the money I´d try the Tango interface. Any users yet?
http://www.smartav.net/tango/downloa...ril%202009.pdf

Matti

[Lipflap]

I like changing things every few hours: changing chairs; changing the way I sit; changing from the Kensington to a silly mouse; etc. I also enforce a break and a little walk on the parking lot every couple of hours. One of the down sides of no longer smoking is the lack of an internal pesky reminder to leave the room, stretch the bones and look at something other than the screen. Now I have to remind myself that breaks are not for weaklings and that the five minutes spent outside will likely result in better productivity as well as happier body parts.

[Brent Hahn]

Originally Posted by Lipflap

One of the down sides of no longer smoking is the lack of an internal pesky reminder to leave the room, stretch the bones and look at something other than the screen.

Same thing happened to me when I got Soundminer.

[Steven1145]

Originally Posted by Brent Hahn

Back in the mid-90's, (Bill's 15 years ago), I don't think there was any question that a stock PT system with 888 convertors didn't sound as good as a Fairlight.

+1
I just sold 2 out of 3 MFX3+ that we had. The build quality is awesome and the things still boot and work like on day one. I'm sad that no other DAW builder ever thought of making an editing controller like the Fairlight MFK. We did'nt go down the Fairlight QDC route, and are not switching to CC-1 either as we're happy with our Nuendos. But damn do I miss a good editing controller!

[sonoworks]

If i could use Nuendo, I would like to try this one:

http://www.wk-audio.de/controlleridedit/c/d

[Steven1145]

I saw their pre-production drawings for the Edit a couple of years ago, and for me there was just not enough customisation possible for the buttons. The layout is'nt right for me.

What really rocks once it's setup and has all it's keys set to suit your needs, is the Euphonix MC Pro. But seeing that it costs the price of a Fairlight CC-1 with it's Xynergy controller, I think I'll hold on to my mouse for now

[Uncle Joe]

Originally Posted by Bill@AudioVision

After spending 15 years with Fairlight controllers and editing 4 complete Audio Bibles (72 hours of finished production each) as well as hundreds of other projects, I can sit all day and edit with out any fatigue to my hands. My butt's another story...
Anyway, it's a 'two-fisted' technique that works best and IMHO is very similar to playing a keyboard instrument. It's also very fast... when you have projects the size of Bibles, you have to go FAST.
I have done some editing in a PT LE with a track ball (MS Trackball Explorer) and in just a few minutes, my right hand is either numb or sore.
Biggest reason for me to go Fairlight was edit speed followed closely by sound quality and reliability.

G'day Bill,

Thanks for your comments mate ...

Sometimes ... All we want to do is speed, speed, and get home early !

Once the product's task is known, design the interface first; then implement to the interface design.

Best Regards,

Uncle Joe.


.

[ErikG]

A few tips...

I have on and off used a game controller for my left hand rather than the keyboard:
A Belkin N52 (Belkin n52te - Built For Speed. Built to Dominate. Built to Destroy.). It also comes with an integrated programmer/macromaker.

Switch between different mice,trackballs and tablets when possible, the drawback is that for me the speed goes down a bit each time I switch between them.

Euphonix MC (pre Pro rename) is a good investment for us. definetly eases strain.

Make sure that you have a good chair with proper back suport and possibly buy an extra ergonomic chair to switch with.

If possible work with a table that you can raise and lower. Working standing up, while doing simple editing, is good for a change.

And keep taking those breaks, that is the hardest thing for me as I seem to interrupt my "internal flow" during breaks.

[danijel]

Originally Posted by ErikG

If possible work with a table that you can raise and lower. Working standing up, while doing simple editing, is good for a change.

Does anyone know of a reference design for such a table? I'd like to be able to switch between standing and sitting, but all the solutions that come to my mind would require 5 minutes to adjust the height...... 30 seconds would be more appropriate.

[Geert van den Berg]

Originally Posted by MATTI

If I had the money I´d try the Tango interface. Any users yet?
http://www.smartav.net/tango/downloa...ril%202009.pdf

Matti

Yes I got one. I love it! Its edit panel feature is great because you can change the layouts to your own liking. You can ask me anything you'd like to know about it.

But I do have some observations about this topic. I think that most people that get pains from editting are getting them because either the software they're using doesn't have the right interface OR it does not interface properly with a controller.

With most software you just can't really edit without resorting using an input device like a mouse/trackball/tablet, it's not all about the keycommands. I think Fairlight has an advantage here, though their binnacle editting interface does not seem an improvement over their older MFX+ interface to me...