Terminator Salvation and my eardrums

[rhizomeman]

Just saw Terminator Salvation - I liked it. Not sure why all the critics didn't but I thought it well done and probably as good as it could have been without Arnold and Cameron. Unfortunately, the trailer gives away a secret that is better not known until you see it. Oh well.

Anyway, I noticed and felt the sound was really, really loud. I mean really, f**king loud! Are the soundtracks to these type of action films being pumped through 10 limiters in post production or what? Seemed like there were two volumes - talking volume and really, really loud explosion volume.
Just curious if anyone here works on these type of films and knows. I think I would have enjoyed it more if it was not so consistently loud.

-Rhizomeman

[b808]

I though I was the only one.
Although the film itself had much more potential compared to the previous three.
I did notice that the SFX was just too hot in some scenes in addition to dialogue flying around the rear surrounds which was IMHO just distracting. What caught my eye was the re-recording credits at the very beginning of the credits. Is this new?

[emf1138]

Originally Posted by b808

What caught my eye was the re-recording credits at the very beginning of the credits. Is this new?

Really??? Hmmm... 'Bout freakin' time!

[lakeshorephatty]

I think the first movie i noticed to be way too frickin loud was king kong... Most recently star trek and unfortunately it sounds like terminator as well... I thought there was a standard for the volume?? Guess i have to start bringing earplugs to movies!

[Henchman]

I always get seats almost in the back of the theatre.
Maybe that's why I didn't have a problem with Star trek, and other movies.

[musikwerks]

Have the loudness wars found a new battle front???

[nkf]

I always take hearing protection with me when going to the movies, no kidding. In the last years I always had to use it.

[Eldhrimnir]

Originally Posted by nkf

I always take hearing protection with me when going to the movies, no kidding.

Me too. I only had to use them a few times though. War of the Worlds was ridiculously loud.

[cl516]

holy crap, just saw the movie. yeah, it was super loud! pretty fun ride i guess

[Jfriah]

Originally Posted by b808

What caught my eye was the re-recording credits at the very beginning of the credits. Is this new?

Love it. Kudos to Betty Thomas, who directed Howard Stern's Private Parts which (back 12 years ago now) if memory serves, first credits were the mixers.

[ggegan]

Originally Posted by nkf

I always take hearing protection with me when going to the movies, no kidding. In the last years I always had to use it.

Hey, I always take hearing protection to the mix. If I am not actively mixing sounds, I often have my earplugs in. It isn't just FX that can get over the top volume wise.

As an FX mixer, I even put my earplugs in when the dialog/music mixer I am working with is doing his thing, because even the dialog and music these days can reach levels that are too loud if listenened to over and over again.

I often am asked to mix at levels that I feel are abusive. I can't veto the director in these matters. All I can do is respectfully express my opinion and then accept the inevitable dismissal of my concerns.

If a patron at a theater feels assaulted by the volume levels at their local theater, I would point out that the effect is multiplied many times over for the mixers who have to listen to those levels over and over again during the final mix in order to massage the egos of the directors they are working for.

I am very troubled by the levels we are required, yes required, to work at, but I do not know how to change things. I have mixed well over a hundred feature films and I still am at a quandary as to how I can control the volume levels if the director is determined to go over the top. FILM MAKING IS NOT A DEMOCRACY. The director and producers call the shots, and our job is to satisfy their expectations.

At a certain point, resistance is futile, and all that one accomplishes by refusing to follow direction is to cede the project to someone else. I and many others do our best to keep the volume reasonable, but it is not always within our province to determine these things.

[Energie]

could be certain theatres's. It sounded fine and perfect in the theatre I saw it in. But I notice when I visit certain theatres, they seem to loud specially when watching an action flick

[b808]

Originally Posted by emf1138

Really??? Hmmm... 'Bout freakin' time!

Yeah I was expecting to wait another three to five minutes to see the mixing credits but then BAM like four credit lines past and there they were.

[ggegan]

Well, I have never known a theater to play the audio louder than it was mixed. I have only experienced them reducing volume.

Chances are that if an action movie seemed reasonable to you volume-wise then there's a good chance that the theater had reduced the level a few dB.

A notable exception was "Black Hawk Down". I know the mixers and director all made a concerted effort to ensure that the mix was dynamic without being abusive. That is easier said than done for a film of that genre and can only be accomplished when all parties are on board. I have to hand it to Mike and Myron for maintaining that delicate balance, but it could not have happened if Ridley Scott had not given his imprimatur.

[nkf]

Originally Posted by ggegan

I am very troubled by the levels we are required, yes required, to work at, but I do not know how to change things. I have mixed well over a hundred feature films and I still am at a quandary as to how I can control the volume levels if the director is determined to go over the top. FILM MAKING IS NOT A DEMOCRACY. The director and producers call the shots, and our job is to satisfy their expectations.

Thank you very much for this insider info. Unbelievable! Of course I know that film making is no democracy game but that is literally insane (for the hearing).

[nkf]

Originally Posted by ggegan

A notable exception was "Black Hawk Down". I know the mixers and director all made a concerted effort to ensure that the mix was dynamic without being abusive.

I saw this movie late at night in a fairly large cinema and it was very loud, too loud. It was very emerging with all the gun shots and explosions at that level but instead of grabbing a bullet proof west and a vulcan minigun I put something into my ears. Then the film was acceptable. The cinema was nearly empty, maybe 20 people were watching and the volume in the cinema was probably not adapted to the missing absorbers (hundreds of human bodies).

[saovi]

Originally Posted by ggegan

I am very troubled by the levels we are required, yes required, to work at, but I do not know how to change things. I have mixed well over a hundred feature films and I still am at a quandary as to how I can control the volume levels if the director is determined to go over the top. FILM MAKING IS NOT A DEMOCRACY. The director and producers call the shots, and our job is to satisfy their expectations.

At a certain point, resistance is futile, and all that one accomplishes by refusing to follow direction is to cede the project to someone else. I and many others do our best to keep the volume reasonable, but it is not always within our province to determine these things.

Wow great post. Seems the politics of Hollywood run deep in every direction including those in audio. For the rest of us who haven't sat in the hot seat where movie directors are asking for more volume I thought it was generous of you to share your experiences. Are you basically running every track through a limiter? And what would you recommend for hearing protection to mix with?

[rhizomeman]

Originally Posted by ggegan

Hey, I always take hearing protection to the mix. If I am not actively mixing sounds, I often have my earplugs in. It isn't just FX that can get over the top volume wise.

As an FX mixer, I even put my earplugs in when the dialog/music mixer I am working with is doing his thing, because even the dialog and music these days can reach levels that are too loud if listenened to over and over again.

I often am asked to mix at levels that I feel are abusive. I can't veto the director in these matters. All I can do is respectfully express my opinion and then accept the inevitable dismissal of my concerns.

If a patron at a theater feels assaulted by the volume levels at their local theater, I would point out that the effect is multiplied many times over for the mixers who have to listen to those levels over and over again during the final mix in order to massage the egos of the directors they are working for.

I am very troubled by the levels we are required, yes required, to work at, but I do not know how to change things. I have mixed well over a hundred feature films and I still am at a quandary as to how I can control the volume levels if the director is determined to go over the top. FILM MAKING IS NOT A DEMOCRACY. The director and producers call the shots, and our job is to satisfy their expectations.

At a certain point, resistance is futile, and all that one accomplishes by refusing to follow direction is to cede the project to someone else. I and many others do our best to keep the volume reasonable, but it is not always within our province to determine these things.

Yes, thank you for that very illuminating post. I guess what I cannot believe is that the directors/producers do not hear the audio damage they are doing by not listening to the engineer's advice. Watching the movie felt like a sonic assault, and rather than the action sequences sounding exciting due to the ebb and flow of dynamic contrast, they became somewhat boring because everything was equally loud. My wife had the same experience and she is not a trained musician.

[ggegan]

Originally Posted by saovi

Wow great post. Seems the politics of Hollywood run deep in every direction including those in audio. For the rest of us who haven't sat in the hot seat where movie directors are asking for more volume I thought it was generous of you to share your experiences. Are you basically running every track through a limiter? And what would you recommend for hearing protection to mix with?

I only use limiters to tame transient peaks that would light the clip lights. Generally you can't hear them working because they only get tickled a couple of dB, I'm not really squishing things much at all. I don't even use compression much except on the foley to keep it from getting too peaky and clicky at low level.

I just buy the cheap foam earplugs at the local drug store. I don't wear them when I'm actually mixing, only when the other mixer is working.

[iluvatar]

Originally Posted by ggegan

I only use limiters to tame transient peaks that would light the clip lights. Generally you can't hear them working because they only get tickled a couple of dB, I'm not really squishing things much at all. I don't even use compression much except on the foley to keep it from getting too peaky and clicky at low level.

I just buy the cheap foam earplugs at the local drug store. I don't wear them when I'm actually mixing, only when the other mixer is working.

Forgive me for asking a noob question, but how does the whole workflow of mixing a big-budget feature film even work? I see pictures of large stages with consoles that seat multiple people at once and I wonder if one guy has everybody else hang on for a few minutes while he loops the same 5 second section over-and-over again, trying to tweeze something. Or is most of the mixing done (in smaller studios) by the time it even gets to the big stage? How do last-minute edits get done? Are there even last-minute edits? I have a bunch of questions that I don't even really know how to ask.

Mixing music I understand, but mixing films with so many other people involved is completely foreign to me.

-Dan.

[ggegan]

Originally Posted by iluvatar

Forgive me for asking a noob question, but how does the whole workflow of mixing a big-budget feature film even work? I see pictures of large stages with consoles that seat multiple people at once and I wonder if one guy has everybody else hang on for a few minutes while he loops the same 5 second section over-and-over again, trying to tweeze something. Or is most of the mixing done (in smaller studios) by the time it even gets to the big stage? How do last-minute edits get done? Are there even last-minute edits? I have a bunch of questions that I don't even really know how to ask.

Mixing music I understand, but mixing films with so many other people involved is completely foreign to me.

-Dan.

The answers to your questions could fill a book, but I'll try to give a concise answer.

Generally, most of the detail work is done during predubs, which take place before the client shows up. I work through 5 or 6 reels of hundreds of FX one by one and try to get them to play close to how I think they will be in the final mix. To do a decent job, that is going to take me maybe 5 or 6 days for the average non-action film. The Dialog mixer does the same on a separate stage. We come together during the final with the client present, and that is usually the first time we hear the Music score, so of course we will have to adjust the tracks to fit. The Dialogue/ Music mixer usually makes a pass first to rough the music in, and I do what I can to adjust my FX appropriately without slowing him down. We then go back through the reel and fine tune everything scene by scene with the director's input.

There is a lot of give and take between the two mixers. When you have worked with someone a while, you know who has priority at any given time based on the director's input and what the issues are. If the Dialogue or Music have priority, then I may be able to deal with certain FX issues in the background, but often I just have to wait until he is finished and then it is my turn to finesse things.

It all has a lot to do with motion control. If the Dialog mixer is working on something, then he will need to be able to hit play or stop without thinking about my needs. I'm not going to try to work on something that doesn't fit into his rhythm, because he'll probably wind up hitting stop right in the middle of my fader move and then I'm hosed. When it's my turn, the reverse is true.

There are some times when I just have to either sit there and veg out, or get on my laptop and catch up on my e-mail because I have nothing to do in the scene that is being worked on. Sometimes I'll even leave the stage and go talk to management about an upcoming project, make some phone calls, do a Starbucks run for the stage or just sit in the sun for a little bit. I don't go far, because I could be needed at any time. After so many years in the business, you have a pretty good idea how long things are going to take.

Regarding edits and changes, if I know I have a editorial work to do or I have gotten a ton of sweetener tracks at the last minute that have to be imported into my mix session and then need panning or other treatment that I can do offline, I'll generally do a preliminary record pass on a scene just to give the other mixer something to work against. I can then put the recorded stems in playback and take my source session off line to do work using headphones while the Dialog mixer is working on his tracks. There is usually a sound editor on the stage that edits sweeteners that I import into my session, but any editing in the mix session I generally do myself.

[Berolzheimer]

You can be certain that film is loud because the director and/or producers pushed it to be. I know Doug & Ron well and they're among the very best and most tasteful mixers in the biz, left to their own devices they'll turn out a beautiful, dynamic mix every time. Unfortunately they're not always left alone to do what they know how to do better than just about anyone else.

[iluvatar]

Originally Posted by ggegan

The answers to your questions could fill a book, but I'll try to give a concise answer.

Thanks gary! It sounds like it's as much a matter of cooperation and team dynamics as, I suppose, any other group endeavor. If I have more questions, I'll probably start a new thread to avoid derailing this one.

-Dan.

[Jfriah]

I have to ask: because I've been there before (director reaching over and pushing a fader to the top and still wanting it louder)--- without giving up your 5th rights, what about increasing the level of the mains in the mix room a couple/three dB? But astute clients would pick up on this eventually, especially if they have good sense memory and see/hear the project in a theatre.

And, just raising the mains levels doesn't alleviate the problem: making things too loud. Did I state that correctly? "HAVING to make things too loud" (as opposed to doing it on purpose or by choice...)

I just wish more clients would get the hang of dynamic mixing and the simple fact you can't have LOUD unless you have quiet

And so many great examples of that out there, kudos to those involved. Today's sound repro systems can (and do) hurt. I still brilliantly remember the tune up a downtown Vancouver theatre got in time for Star Wars: Episode I. Saw 'Spawn' there and oh--my-- all those chains at 110dB? Eeyowch.

-J

p.s. thanks, Gary, for the filmschool blurb! Well done.

[ggegan]

Originally Posted by Jfriah

I have to ask: because I've been there before (director reaching over and pushing a fader to the top and still wanting it louder)--- without giving up your 5th rights, what about increasing the level of the mains in the mix room a couple/three dB? But astute clients would pick up on this eventually, especially if they have good sense memory and see/hear the project in a theatre.

And, just raising the mains levels doesn't alleviate the problem: making things too loud. Did I state that correctly? "HAVING to make things too loud" (as opposed to doing it on purpose or by choice...)

I just wish more clients would get the hang of dynamic mixing and the simple fact you can't have LOUD unless you have quiet

And so many great examples of that out there, kudos to those involved. Today's sound repro systems can (and do) hurt. I still brilliantly remember the tune up a downtown Vancouver theatre got in time for Star Wars: Episode I. Saw 'Spawn' there and oh--my-- all those chains at 110dB? Eeyowch.

-J

p.s. thanks, Gary, for the filmschool blurb! Well done.

I don't like to fool the client because if they ever find out you will have lost their trust.

However, I actually do have some strategies that usually help.

I save the loud scenes for later in the day after I have finished the lower level scenes. I then try to work through the least loud elements first and add the super loud stuff last. I will often do the initial passes in dim with the client out of the room. When I'm pretty sure I have everything pretty close, I'll check it once at full volume and then make any final adjustments as quickly as possible, perhaps in dim if feasable. I then call the client in to hear it with virgin ears. If I know they are volume freaks, I won't hold back, I'll make it as loud as possible. Often when they hear the scene the first time with virgin ears, it'll scare the sh*t out of them and they'll accuse me of being a maniac and tell me to turn it down. Mission accomplished.

Sometimes when you go over and over a loud scene at full volume your ears can get accustomed to the levels and it loses it's impact. That is why I try not to expose the client to the scene too soon.

It is generally the contrast between loud and soft that gives the sensation of volume and power, so sometimes I am able to gradually lower everything before an explosive event, which allows me to keep it a bit lower without losing the impact.

I also find that I can use very loud but short shots of LFE to give a physical body jolt and feeling of power without pushing the midrange and highs super loud. The sub doesn't tend to hurt so much and the short duration allows the ears to recover faster. I am the most careful about midrange in the 800Hz to 2kHz range. Those frequencies are the most painful and also tend to have a fair amount of distortion in many loud recordings. The distortion is especially fatiguing and painful. Sometimes I'll carve a bit of a dip in those frequencies.

Car chases with lots of skids and women screaming continuously are the worst. I'd say that car chases are the hardest type of scene to keep at reasonable level and still have impact.

[Rick Sanchez]

Originally Posted by ggegan

I don't like to fool the client because if they ever find out you will have lost their trust.

Sometimes when you go over and over a loud scene at full volume your ears can get accustomed to the levels and it loses it's impact. That it why I try not to expose the client to the scene too soon.

.

Two great points Gary. Whatever we can do to back off this trend, the better.

Personally I'm voting with my pocketbook by not paying to go the films anymore. I made the mistake of seeing Star Trek, which was a very entertaining film, but the volume ruined it for me. It was way too loud and the ear ringing 7 hours later confirmed that. If its an action film, it's Netflix for me. Once I started to have to wear earplugs in a theater, it's just not worth paying $9-$14.

[charles maynes]

Gary- your comments on the mix on Blackhawk were dead on- a brilliant mix in every way.

it seems to me that the more mature the director is, the more reasonable the volume will be- It seems all the youngsters are trying to make action films which play at rock concert volume.... which is just exhausting to the audience....

[ggegan]

Originally Posted by charles maynes

Gary- your comments on the mix on Blackhawk were dead on- a brilliant mix in every way.

it seems to me that the more mature the director is, the more reasonable the volume will be- It seems all the youngsters are trying to make action films which play at rock concert volume.... which is just exhausting to the audience....

I have a theory that these volume issues are all about either insecurity on the part of the director because he has doubts about whether his movie is exciting enough, or else they have just watched it over and over so many times that they are bored with it and are looking for ways to get excited again. Just a theory.

I've also worked with a few well known directors who were nearly deaf. One director kept wanting his war film's explosions bigger than the system could handle. Someone (not me) asked him semi-jokingly "Are you f*cking deaf?", because they were so excruciatingly loud. He sheepishly admitted that actually he had been in an artillery unit in Viet Nam and wound up with pretty severe hearing damage.

[charles maynes]

My dad had his hearing blown out there (he actually got caught in enemy fire)- he had to be medivac'd out, but refused a Purple Heart for it....

hearing is a precious thing.

[Clueless]

Originally Posted by Rick Sanchez

Two great points Gary. Whatever we can do to back off this trend, the better.

Personally I'm voting with my pocketbook by not paying to go the films anymore. I made the mistake of seeing Star Trek, which was a very entertaining film, but the volume ruined it for me. It was way too loud and the ear ringing 7 hours later confirmed that. If its an action film, it's Netflix for me. Once I started to have to wear earplugs in a theater, it's just not worth paying $9-$14.

When farmers got tired of people labeling industrial waste as food (or industrial toxins as fertilizers/pesticides/etc), they came up with an Organic labeling. It was not an overnight success, but over time, this labeling standard has provided the free market with a marker that, over time, has become the preference for those who have the money to afford it.

The Loudness Wars are one kind of problem in recordings one plays in one's own home: crappy sound from distorted input signals. But in the home, one at least has control over one's own volume level. If the Loudness Wars move into theaters, it's a whole new problem, because people cannot control the levels in the theater--they can only wear hearing protection. And most of us are so accustomed to reliance on government oversight that we believe it's almost impossible for us to be injured when engaged in normal, lawful commerce, such as payment for entrance to a movie theater.

I believe that there are well-established standards for what volume levels are safe for what period of time, assuming daily exposure. The AES should be a leader in establishing, branding, and promoting such a chart, which can become the basis of a A PR campaign for public education.

Simultaneously, the AES should establish a method whereby movie distributors and movie theaters can joinly certify which of their shows meet the AES safety guidelines. Consumer safety folks can warn, threaten, boycott those that don't meet those standards.

It is absolutely ridiculous, not to mention negligent, that either the movie distributors or the movie theaters would unknowingly (because they are ignorant) or knowingly (because they are stupid) injure their patrons in the name of entertainment.

If anybody wants to start a class action lawsuit, send me a pm. Seriously.

Or maybe we can resolve this peaceably, by working with the AES to use market forces to fix the problem.