Meyer Sound Lab Cinema Array

[Rick Sanchez]

I always wondered whether John Meyer would design a cinema monitoring system and apparently he has. After all, a cinema monitor system is basically a sound reinforcement system and Meyer is in the top of that game. Would love to hear these on a good stage or a nice theater.

Meyer Sound : Cinema Experience

[apple-q]

I wonder if these would work for studio-work. They seem to be pretty large. Is there a price-tag for these yet?

[Fredo]

Working everyday on Meyer HD'1's and having heard the X10's numerous times, I suspect that this setup will blow away any existing JBL -or other- Cinema system. If not, then it would be the first time that John Meyer didn't blow away the competition ....

Fredo Gevaert
Temple Of Tune
Belgium

[apple-q]

Originally Posted by Fredo

Working everyday on Meyer HD'1's and having heard the X10's numerous times, I suspect that this setup will blow away any existing JBL -or other- Cinema system. If not, then it would be the first time that John Meyer didn't blow away the competition ....

Fredo Gevaert
Temple Of Tune
Belgium

Exactly! Hence my question.

q

[minister]

Originally Posted by apple-q

I wonder if these would work for studio-work. They seem to be pretty large. Is there a price-tag for these yet?

But these are meant for Dub Stages and Theaters and NOT studios. Too much speaker. They won't be cheap.

Why not get something from his studio series?

[apple-q]

Originally Posted by minister

But these are meant for Dub Stages and Theaters and NOT studios. Too much speaker. They won't be cheap.

Why not get something from his studio series?

"Too much speaker"? You mean too large?
Then probably only the HD1 is an alternative because their other "studio"-speakers are about the size of the cinema-series.

Or did I get you wrong?

I wasn´t looking for cheap just looking for a rough price estimate.

q

[dr.sound]

The Meyer prices are as follows:
The Acheron 80/100 are $10,000.00 each speaker
The X-800 sub is $6500.00
The HMS Surround are $2000.00 ea
For a 5.1 set up for a smaller room is $50,000.00
If you have a mid size or larger you should get the dual bass bin
for each front speaker. If I remember correctly they are $6500 ea
That will raise the total to $69,500.00
I'm personally very interested.

[apple-q]

Originally Posted by dr.sound

The Meyer prices are as follows:
The Acheron 80/100 are $10,000.00 each speaker
The X-800 sub is $6000.00
The HMS Surround are $2000.00 ea
For a 5.1 set up for a smaller room is $50,000.00
If you have a mid size or larger you should get the dual bass bin
for each front speaker. If I remember correctly they are $8000 ea
That will raise the total to $74,000.00
I'm personally very interested.

Gulp. OK, so that´s that then

A bit too far away from my budget...

thanks for the info! On the other hand, who would seriously mix on them when all cinemas on the planet use JBLs.

They might blow everything else away but isn´t film mixing about compatibility?
q.

[emf1138]

If I'm not mistaken, these are the monitors that were setup for the "Sound of the Dark Knight" thingy at the Egyptian theatre a few months back. They were freakin' amazing, definitely turned up way beyond 85, but an absolutely amazing sound.

[Rick Sanchez]

Originally Posted by emf1138

If I'm not mistaken, these are the monitors that were setup for the "Sound of the Dark Knight" thingy at the Egyptian theatre a few months back. They were freakin' amazing, definitely turned up way beyond 85, but an absolutely amazing sound.

I've mixed many concerts on Meyer systems and they really stand far above most anything else I've used. I've also mixed music on the HD1 nearfields and have heard orchestral recordings through their larger studio monitors, which are also some of my favorite monitors, so I'd assume that Meyer Cinema monitors would also eclipse the competition for high end reproduction. Now if only theater owners would spend the money to install them.

[funkcity]

Originally Posted by dr.sound

The Meyer prices are as follows:
The Acheron 80/100 are $10,000.00 each speaker
The X-800 sub is $6500.00
The HMS Surround are $2000.00 ea
For a 5.1 set up for a smaller room is $50,000.00
If you have a mid size or larger you should get the dual bass bin
for each front speaker. If I remember correctly they are $6500 ea
That will raise the total to $69,500.00
I'm personally very interested.

But why?
You will not be able to charge one dollar more for your dubbing stage!
And you revert to a 2 way system when most major studios are going 3 and 4-way. The new Technicolor at Paramount is using the new JBL 5742
4-Way High Power ScreenArray Loudspeakers.

You cannot aim the horn independently...something we always do when setting up a screening or mixing theater.

But they do sound "clean". And the dialog is quite well-defined.

But if you are getting say 50% off list price...like some theater chains might be then I'd expect you to be interested.

[dr.sound]

Originally Posted by funkcity

But why?
You will not be able to charge one dollar more for your dubbing stage!
And you revert to a 2 way system when most major studios are going 3 and 4-way. The new Technicolor at Paramount is using the new JBL 5742
4-Way High Power ScreenArray Loudspeakers.

You cannot aim the horn independently...something we always do when setting up a screening or mixing theater.

But they do sound "clean". And the dialog is quite well-defined.

But if you are getting say 50% off list price...like some theater chains might be then I'd expect you to be interested.

So Funk,
When are they putting the Meyer's in the Academy Theater?

[charles maynes]

Originally Posted by apple-q

Gulp. OK, so that´s that then

A bit too far away from my budget...

thanks for the info! On the other hand, who would seriously mix on them when all cinemas on the planet use JBLs.

They might blow everything else away but isn´t film mixing about compatibility?
q.

yeah..... it is.

[dr.sound]

What is your basis for “compatibility”?
Let’s look at some of the various places in “Hollywood” that
Mix Feature Films.
Nearly ALL OF THEM have a modified JBL system or other speakers
Instead of standard JBL Theatrical speakers:

Todd A/O
Fox
Sony
Dolby
Warner Brothers
………………………

And the list goes on.
Now if the above places wanted strict compatibility then
Everyone of them would have the same speakers and components.

[charles maynes]

Originally Posted by dr.sound

What is your basis for “compatibility”?
Let’s look at some of the various places in “Hollywood” that
Mix Feature Films.
Nearly ALL OF THEM have a modified JBL system or other speakers
Instead of standard JBL Theatrical speakers:

Todd A/O
Fox
Sony
Dolby
Warner Brothers
………………………

And the list goes on.
Now if the above places wanted strict compatibility then
Everyone of them would have the same speakers and components.

Marti- you might talk to Jay Palmer and Gary B about this- it is a bit of a problem so it seems-

[dr.sound]

Charles,
"funkcity" (Jay) is already in the discussion.

[charles maynes]

Originally Posted by dr.sound

Charles,
"funkcity" (Jay) is already in the discussion.

clever- well Jay is like that....

[ggegan]

I have had a discussion similar to this with other mixers and engineers over the years and am of mixed opinion. Obviously most people would like to have the best quality monitoring system available if they could afford it, but there are some pitfalls. For instance, if your surround speakers are capable of reproducing 20Hz-20kHz (tuned to the x curve obviously) at 110 dB SPL without distortion, you can make a huge explosion play equally in all speakers and it would sound pretty awesome on a dub stage, but when it plays back in any normal theatrical venue, it may sound much different and could distort in the surrounds, if not blow them out. To a certain extent, I rely on the limitations of monitor systems to inform me when I have crossed the line. The same goes for the front speakers. If the dialog is playing so pristine out of the front speakers that you can crowd it with music and FX, yet still be intelligible, but when you take it into the real world it is smeared and subject to higher intermodulation distortion so that it becomes unintelligible, what have you accomplished?

I'm not necessarilly advocating for lesser quality monitors, but one can definitely be fooled into creating unrealistic mix situations. I guess my tendency would be to match the quality of the Academy theater or the Directors guild, where the director and producers will be doing their most crucial screenings, but not bother going beyond that. Are they using Meyers? That's not a rhetorical question, I'm not sure what speakers they use.

[funkcity]

I love you guys!

uh...long-winded-here...of course

I too was at the Meyer demo at Wildfire with you Marti and had an extensive discussion with the Meyer folks at Show East in Florida a couple of months ago. It is a very good product but just as JBL found out and TAD found out these expensive systems, and I include Meyer in there, may have a problem getting traction in the theater exhibition market....(not necessarily in the studios)

I was clearly pulling your chain Marti....but this is what is happening as I see it.
In an effort to move beyond the standard old 2-way JBL system, the studios started once again to roll their own. Paramount with a 4 way Community system, WB the custom Turbo-Sound/Community/JBL custom 3 way, Todd-AO with a bass extended BagEnd/JBL system, Sony with the Sony Compression drivers, Universal with the JBL 5000 ala the Academy's Goldwyn theater,
The Academy's Dunn uses a custom 3 way TAD speaker system ala Skywalker's Stag Theater, Todd Glenn 1 with the BMS co-ax on top and the BagEnd Elf system on the bottom. Fox With twin JBL 2226 woofers, a 90/40 EV Horn and a BMS 4592 co-ax Mylar diaphragmed compression driver.

And you wonder why the consistency of playout is variable?

ggegan's Quote <<<<I'm not necessarily advocating for lesser quality monitors, but one can definitely be fooled into creating unrealistic mix situations. I guess my tendency would be to match the quality of the Academy theater or the Directors guild, where the director and producers will be doing their most crucial screenings, but not bother going beyond that. >>>>

And in fact people do bring their mixes there to check quality and compatibility.

The new JBL 5742 4-Way High Power ScreenArray Loudspeakers are pretty much state of the art for JBL right now featuring twin-18" bass extension and an HF driver that goes out to 19KHZ.

Getting away from the harshness of metal domed diaphragms?....I should write and article on this as it was the domain of BMS a very good smooth-sounding co-axial compression driver. But wait!

JBL just released a new driver...(no metal domed diaphragms here either) 2 drivers in one but different than the BMS in that it actually sums in the driver so only 1 amp channel is needed.
Its called the D2.
Their 1st product out using it is: VTX Line Array
JBL Professional :: Tour Sound :: VTX
Extended HF Reproduction, Smoother Response, Higher Power Handling Lower Distortion, Reduced Power Compression, Increased Dynamic Headroom

These technologies are moving the art forward...a very painful direction most of the time. But dammit to my beaten ears they just sound better and less harsh...I've not yet heard the JBL but I went to the AES preprint from a few months ago and the engineering and technology is quite impressive.
Presented at the 131st Convention
2011 October 20–23 New York, NY, USA
DUAL DIAPHRAGM COMPRESSION DRIVERS
1 Alex Voishvillo, (from JBL) AES Fellow

NAMM 2012
NAMM day two jbl - YouTube

So while everyone out there seemed to improve on the JBL compression driver concept it seems that JBL has now improved on the dual driver/non-metal diaphragm concept.

With the non-metal diaphragms, the break-up modes are extremely minimized as are the distortion and harshness. And I believe this is where its going folks.

However...What Meyer has done is developed a drop-in system with guaranteed performance with very little tweaking needed to go online. And that ain't bad at all.

It will never go back to the all Altec A2s or A4s or the 2-way JBL 4675 systems. There was some basic standardization then....not now.
Even the X-curve is being taken to task in various SMPTE and AES committees.

FYI; Also check out the new QSC Cinema subwoofer
21" woofer with 6" voice coil.
QSC - DCS SB-15121 21" Cinema Subwoofer
Rumor has it that a famous director now has 2 of these in his home screening theater!!
QSC: DCS SB-15121, 21" Subwoofer

enough for now...

[ErikG]

Just a quick comment.
With the degenerating of standard playback levels in theatres in general and the already sad state of most cinema playback systems. Compability is harder then ever to achieve.
Although I'd love to get rid of the harsh sounding JBL horns, mixing on silky speakers and then replaying on harsh speakers in the theatres won't do me any favours in my producer/director relationships.
Im not a JBL fanboy, but I do choose to use them. And I will do that as long as they are the no1 speakers in cinemas.
If the new JBL tops sound better and if they are inexpensive enough that cinema owners will start adopting them, then I would Definetly consider using them as soon as they get some serious market penetration. Until then I think we'll keep our standard JBL three way systems.

[funkcity]

Its funny I met someone from the The Norwegian Film Institute. (Up in your neck of the woods) He was surprised to know we were using the German BMS co-axial drivers at Fox. Because he was using them at the Institute also with BMS woofers....and loved them. But everyone needs to find their own path. There are many ways to produce good sound.

[thierryd]

also a few quick thoughts here: the theory of having a standard in the form of the X-Curve is great and luckily it still forms some sort of basis to start from. That said you can walk into 10 X-Curve calibrated rooms and they will give you 10 different "feelings". The basis is there and a re-recording engineer will be able to mix in there, but every room needs a certain time to adapt yourself to. This has to do with the combined factors of room size, acoustic design, chosen loudspeakers and amplifiers combined with EQ room correction etc. There's interesting research done by Philip Newell (and Brank Neskov who posts here on Gearslutz). I have listened to films I mixed in 2 Dolby calibrated mix stages with JBL next to each other, and one sounded harsher (still having the same X-Curve response when measured)...
The important issue remains (as others have mentioned here) that you shouldn't make your system sound a lot "better" than a good reference theater, because it will distort your ability to judge a mix "correctly". That said it's always possible to make a good sounding system a bit less good and it is never possible to make a crap system sound good. That is an important consideration when specifying components. And if you have a great system and the "standard" moves to more "Hi-Fidelity", it's easier to adapt.

Greetings,

Thierry

[dmitri]

Originally Posted by thierryd

also a few quick thoughts here: the theory of having a standard in the form of the X-Curve is great and luckily it still forms some sort of basis to start from. That said you can walk into 10 X-Curve calibrated rooms and they will give you 10 different "feelings". The basis is there and a re-recording engineer will be able to mix in there, but every room needs a certain time to adapt yourself to. This has to do with the combined factors of room size, acoustic design, chosen loudspeakers and amplifiers combined with EQ room correction etc. There's interesting research done by Philip Newell (and Brank Neskov who posts here on Gearslutz). I have listened to films I mixed in 2 Dolby calibrated mix stages with JBL next to each other, and one sounded harsher (still having the same X-Curve response when measured)...
The important issue remains (as others have mentioned here) that you shouldn't make your system sound a lot "better" than a good reference theater, because it will distort your ability to judge a mix "correctly". That said it's always possible to make a good sounding system a bit less good and it is never possible to make a crap system sound good. That is an important consideration when specifying components. And if you have a great system and the "standard" moves to more "Hi-Fidelity", it's easier to adapt.

Greetings,

Thierry

I've had a chance to check my mixes in two different Dolby Premier certified stages which both belong to the same facility. They are of roughly similar size but have quite different acoustic design. Both rooms have the same 3-way JBL screen arrays. Premier certification requires not more than 1 dB deviation from the X-curve. The rooms sound completely different in terms of frequency response, room reverberation and subjective level of surrounds. One room feels much duller and boomier than the other. Interesting, that most mixers including me prefer the "brighter" room. The boomier room also causes very unpleasant hearing fatigue.

[Branko]

One can expect these Premier rooms to sound different, because, in order to achieve tight tolerances, the "room" has to be equalized more. It is a paradox that, by smoothing out the response in the reverberant field, we have to distort the direct signal coming from speakers.
We hear differences between these two systems (room + speakers) because our brain can distinguish between the direct signal and room reflections. That leads to the conclusion that the current method of room alignment has to be radically changed.

[tpad]

Before you get too involved with these, I would suggest that you carefully look at the noise spec for this system. I have read complaints (not at this website) of audible hiss.

[dr.sound]

Originally Posted by tpad

Before you get too involved with these, I would suggest that you carefully look at the noise spec for this system. I have read complaints (not at this website) of audible hiss.

I wil have to check with my two sources: One at "Skywalker Sound" and one at
"Wildfire" in LA to see about any hiss.

[funkcity]

Originally Posted by tpad

Before you get too involved with these, I would suggest that you carefully look at the noise spec for this system. I have read complaints (not at this website) of audible hiss.

Always check gain structure. If the amps are full tilt (and don't need to be for the required headroom) you can have hiss.

I don't know what control is available on this self-powered system but it would be good to see.

[finalmix]

I have found lately that mixes done using the BMS coax drivers are not translating well to the JBL rooms. We must be much more diligent about our new reference points. All the work on getting our standards to a point where we were finally hearing the differences in mix styles is in jeopardy if we are not careful in regarding compatibility.

[tpad]

In a large room, I doubt you will have any hiss issues. Where you get into trouble is using them in a room smaller than what they were really designed for. The output noise floor is fairly high.

[funkcity]

Originally Posted by finalmix

I have found lately that mixes done using the BMS coax drivers are not translating well to the JBL rooms. We must be much more diligent about our new reference points. All the work on getting our standards to a point where we were finally hearing the differences in mix styles is in jeopardy if we are not careful in regarding compatibility.

You might want to check with Mike Minkler who brought a 7.1 DCP mix of "Fright Night" to the Academy for the sound inspections a few weeks ago. His mix system was the Todd 4-way with the BMS co-ax above 500 hz. There were no complaints heard when played on the Academy's JBL 5000 3-way system.