Room Tone...

[Boussani]

Yet again...
Hello everyone

So, I started working on a new independent film... Needless to say, the sound isn't perfect... It's not bad though! I've dealt with much worst before!
And that's what inspires me to REALLY get this one to sound professional... (movie that just sound like crap, I just get it to sound the best I can, but obviously, it will never sound professional...)

Now...
Room tone... There is some... That I don't mind...
But, I noticed that in big budget films, the dialogue is isolated from the room tone, and the room tone takes only the LR. (Center is dialogue ONLY)

My question is-
Other than the ADRed parts... How do they do that?
Here are two methods that I thought about (but didn't work)
1) Denoising... but it's too much. It affects the dialogue sound.
2) Phase reversing a sample of the room tone on a new track to cancel it from the Center track. Did not really work..

Any suggestions? Anyone?





As a side question-
In those real big budget movies, what percentage of the dialogue we're hearing is ADR?


Thank you very much!
Shachar

[Matti]

I understand room tone as the tone of the set when nobody is talking or movig
to help dialoque editing later -30 secs is enough at the set if given...

Matti

[jrfountain]

Hey Shachar,

Roomtone whether it's from location dialog or as an added sound effect most definitely plays in the centre speaker. It's there to act as glue to make the dialog edit play seamlessly. If it were as you say just in the LR while the dialog played in the centre, that would feel odd and disconnected, the exact opposite of what you are trying to achieve.

JR

[sailor]

Actual room tone, recorded on-set, should be part of the dialog track playing in the center speaker. It's intended to be a seamless filler between edited lines of dialog so you don't have empty holes of silence between lines. You would cut this into your dialog track, the goal being, if you played back only the edited dialog, it would sound natural. Hopefully the production mixer recorded some tone for you; or you might have to sift through your dialog tracks to recover a bit of it.

If it's too noisy, you can try to denoise it, but as you've seen, at times it can do more harm than good. But if the tone is seamlessly intercut, although it may be a bit noisier than you would like overall, you at least will eliminate the annoying "holes" in the track....which can be more distracting than the tone itself. You can also consider a multiband expander rather than a "denoising" box or plug-in....sometimes that can help a bit without being too intrusive.

Just for clarificaion, ambience or background SFX beds are a different matter. These can be addtional "room tone" beds to help define the space, or scene-specific sweeteners (light breeze in an exterior shot, etc.). These you can spread among your playback channels as necessary for the scene. But don't think of them as a substitute for proper room tone. Room tone = technical; BGs = aesthetic.

BTW....good idea -- in theory -- about trying to use polarity-reversed room tone to cancel out the noise. Almost never works in practice though. Too bad!

[Uncle Bob]

Production sound dialog editing is always a tough gig, especially with outdoors scenes.

Here's a quick look at my personal work flow...

I first import the OMF (Duh!!!). I ask for 10 second handles; I hopefully find bits and pieces to create room tone. I also ask for the audio from the unused takes; they sometimes have a better performance and/or quality and I can find additional pieces of room tone.

Each audio clip is usually corresponds with an edit. I then - scene by scene - organize the clips by the sound quality (character A cu, character B cu, etc.) and stretch the clips out as far as I can. I begin with noise reduction on the worst offender (create some pre-sets) and work my way down to the "best" quality.

Once noise reduction is complete I search through the the alternate takes for better performances/sound quality; the performances take precedence. I do noise reduction on those (remember the presets?).

I then cut and separate everything out; one track for character A, one track for character B, etc. and a track for room tone. Here's where I try to get smooth transitions from line to line - LOTS of crossfades.

I then put the room tone down to zero and bring it back up until the "holes between lines" disappear.

Then I start serious tweaking.

I almost always have to add an additional ambience track; it "hides" the production sound noise and also can enhance the sense of location.

Sorry if I didn't explain it well.

[JusSumguy]

After over 150 or so post credits, and most of them on production sound, may I comment?

I NEVER use any dynamics/EQ/adjustments on the PS. It is what it is. Anything you do to it now will interfere with the re-recording mixer, and his/her approach. It's tantamount to the video editor putting effects on the audio track. As if we don't know what the **** to do. Anywhere I've ever worked, to do this is a no no. And I've cut all over town.

The term dialog editor is really a misnomer. That's why I called it production sound. Because that's what we edit. The dialog is along for the ride. Our job is the stuff in between the edits.

If you have a particularly noisy dialog region, the only option you really have is to ramp the noisy room in and out accordingly. Our object is SMOOTH. Nothing more or less. We aren't responsible for the opportunity/ability of the PS recordist.

One of the usual problems, especially with cheap movies, is the lack of "scene" or "room" tones. I have found that, rather than add an undesired EQ on another existing clip. I will add one of the tones I have in my library to the track. Sometimes alone (with level controls) and sometimes underneath an existing, but undesirable, tone. You'll find that if you copy a few tones straight from a "white noise" CD, that they will be very useful for this. You can change the EQ of a tone without adding any EQ. Which is the point.

Also, consider a longer ramp into the edit, and then getting out as quickly as possible, on the front end. On the out, you might have to consider ramping up your "out" tone from the middle, or beginning, of the previous region. But mainly. Never rush your ramps. SMOOTH...

As you work on movies, begin to save tones of all sorts. Especially the ones you hate. They're usually the ones that will help the most. The pretty ones are easy to work with, right?

Hope this helps.


-

[eshepherd]

Wow, great thread. Helps me out with the projects I am working on right now. The slutz are the best

[TVPostSound]

Amazon.com: Dialogue Editing for Motion Pictures: A Guide to the Invisible Art: John Purcell: Books

[Boussani]

Thanks a lot, everyone!!!

This is great!
Definitely helps me with the understanding of room tone.
I did not receive "room tone tracks" from the editor... I'll contact him to see if he has any...
Till now I've been only cutting stuff from between the dialogue (needless to say, very hard and not as effective as should be)


Once again,
Thanks!

BTW, no one referred to my side question...
Just out of curiosity... Can anyone estimate the percentage of ADRed dialogue in real big budget movies?

[TVPostSound]

I did not receive "room tone tracks" from the editor.

You should be asking for the audio dailies. (Production audio tapes or DVDs or hard drive)
Then you can have access to alt takes too.

[Boussani]

Right, I have that..
I have the hard drive with ALL the files...
But now I need to go hunting for the room tones in the SEA of files. (found a couple so far)

[sailor]

re: proportion of ADR...

Totally varies. Sometimes almost none, sometimes almost all. It can also depend on genre....in a big action scene, they might concede to going all-ADR from the get-go, since capturing good tracks on the set might be unrealistic (too much loud machinery, athletic choreography, etc.) Other times, it's just for fixes of whatever nature.

But less is more -- nobody's a fan of doing ADR. Hats off to ADR recordists....it can be a stressful job! (so can production mixing....we posties have it comparatively easy!)

BTW...in regard to some other posts on this topic....yes, if you are only editing the tracks and will them deliver them to a mixer, don't do any processing to them -- especially destructive processing. My suggestions regarding denoising options only apply if you will also be mixing the film.

[TVPostSound]

But now I need to go hunting for the room tones in the SEA of files. (found a couple so far)

Did you not get the sound reports?? The EDL?? Should make life easy.

[Boussani]

Hmm... Yeah, I guess I could have taken the sound notes (I think they had it in the meeting)

Well, I'm pretty much set already... For next time I'll make sure to have the sound notes before I start...

Thanks, again...

[soundboy]

I think TVPostSound was refering to the on set recordists notes....ie. reel, scene number, take info.
When DX editing for a mix, best to ask the re-record mixer what they want and expect. Some want you to do some leveling, eq to match, and notching of tones and noise reduction,some dont. Depends on budget, time and temperment at the mix. Every team develops a work flow that works for them.

[Boussani]

Originally Posted by soundboy

I think TVPostSound was refering to the on set recordists notes....ie. reel, scene number, take info.
When DX editing for a mix, best to ask the re-record mixer what they want and expect. Some want you to do some leveling, eq to match, and notching of tones and noise reduction,some dont. Depends on budget, time and temperment at the mix. Every team develops a work flow that works for them.

Yeah, I know... I'm doing the whole post-sound, not just mixing... So I think the set notes could have been a little helpful.
But it's Ok... I kinda got everything now. I understand the way they arranged the files now so it's easy for me to find whatever I need.

[leeg1970]

I'd still get the notes as you never know what you might need.
Your term 'kinda got everything' sounds to me like you're not so sure.
Get those notes!

Just out of interest. Why would anyone only ask for a OMF with 10 second handles? That seems ludicrous when you could have 30, and make life easier for yourself.

Also if you, or the recordist only records 30 seconds, I feel that you're limiting yourself to one tone, I'd record at least 90 seconds, three times throughout the day, this way you'll have some good variations for your film.

I always get the recordists phone number as it's good to find out things from him/her that you might miss.

IMHO of course.

[danijel]

Originally Posted by leeg1970

Also if you, or the recordist only records 30 seconds, I feel that you're limiting yourself to one tone, I'd record at least 90 seconds, three times throughout the day, this way you'll have some good variations for your film.

Your British crews must be very disciplined.... I'm happy if I can get to record 30 seconds of roomtone and then get 15 usable after editing out the hairdresser giggles and whatnot :/

[leeg1970]

I wish I could say this were true Danijel! Have you got a cold stare for the hairdresser, or any of the crew who act in this manner? Here's one - or if you're feeling really annoyed this is another (keep smiling) fuuck

If someone talks I'll make them wait even longer. If the Dir/Prod/DOP do not like it I'll go on about the end result being half as good as it can be, now, how can they argue with that?

Originally Posted by danijel

Your British crews must be very disciplined.... I'm happy if I can get to record 30 seconds of roomtone and then get 15 usable after editing out the hairdresser giggles and whatnot :/

[danijel]

Originally Posted by leeg1970

Have you got a cold stare for the hairdresser, or any of the crew who act in this manner? Here's one - or if you're feeling really annoyed this is another (keep smiling) fuuck

LOL!

[soundbarnfool]

I have hundreds of credits as a location sound recordist in TV and Film and always record as much room tone within reason as the AD will allow. Often 4 or 5 times during the scene if it is outdoors and there is traffic, etc. Then sometimes they do not allow me to do this because they are trying to "save time". That is when they spend LOTS of $ in post fixing it. It's their call...

And I will add this: room tone does not mean "quiet". Room tone is the innate sound of the location recorded as though the crew was not there.

Try explaining that to an inexperienced film maker who is on location trying to work fast and cheap.

Inglewood SoundBarn

[JusSumguy]

Originally Posted by soundbarnfool

I have hundreds of credits as a location sound recordist in TV and Film and always record as much room tone within reason as the AD will allow. Often 4 or 5 times during the scene if it is outdoors and there is traffic, etc. Then sometimes they do not allow me to do this because they are trying to "save time". That is when they spend LOTS of $ in post fixing it. It's their call...

And I will add this: room tone does not mean "quiet". Room tone is the innate sound of the location recorded as though the crew was not there.

Try explaining that to an inexperienced film maker who is on location trying to work fast and cheap.

Inglewood SoundBarn

This is exactly why I worded this statement in the way I did.

Originally Posted by JusSumguy

We aren't responsible for the opportunity/ability of the PS recordist.

It's a common practice to flag the ambiance's when on a tight budget. Or when dealing with a relatively untrained AD.

..... and it's rarely the fault of the sound recordist. I feel for ya man. I've done it twice and it's no fun at all. They treat you like a redheaded stepchild.

Anything they give up, is given reluctantly.


-

[leeg1970]

It is common place indeed. But wouldn't a recordist normally get their recordings what-ever the circumstance? Speaking personally, I always fight for this stuff - Prods call or not - burning up my daily rate to achieve my goals!
If it's not happening then I'll do it once everyone's buggered off for their lunch, go in earlier and leave later if I have to.

I do not care if anything is given reluctantly. I'm there to do a job, and I'll do it if it kills me. Please don't get me wrong though, I am a very polite boy.

An untrained AD can soon learn if he or she is pulled aside...

Originally Posted by JusSumguy

It's a common practice to flag the ambiance's when on a tight budget. Or when dealing with a relatively untrained AD.

..... and it's rarely the fault of the sound recordist. I feel for ya man. I've done it twice and it's no fun at all. They treat you like a redheaded stepchild.

Anything they give up, is given reluctantly.


-

[hearMotion]

Originally Posted by TVPostSound

Amazon.com: Dialogue Editing for Motion Pictures: A Guide to the Invisible Art: John Purcell: Books

I just finished this book. I really have to hand it to John - its rare that I read a tech book and are stuck by the generosity of the author. Even though I am aware of most of the technique described and because the book is so well written it was a real confidence booster to revise and know I am doing the right thing. Even just for relatively simple stuff like RT.
+1 for this book for room tone handling!

[ggegan]

I have to say I'm shocked that a thread about room tone would have this much of a life.

Room tone is nothing more than spackle to smooth transitions and bridge gaps. A necessary evil that usually requires no more than 2 tracks in a session, only because you'll need to checkerboard it if its sonic content changes from scene to scene. But it doesn't really add anything to the movie, it just smears over problems with noisy location recordings.

Lately I've had some very experienced editors bringing me multiple 5.0 room tones for each scene and it's a total waste of my time having to fold them down so they can do the job properly. I really am not interested in putting junk noise in all 5 speakers. Just give me one well chosen mono for each scene and expend the effort cutting material that will add something interesting to the sonic landscape.

[OVERNIGHT]

I'm very new to this, just finished mixing (and dialog editing... and foley.. and sound designing... and scoring) my first feature film going to Sundance next week and I was pretty fascinated with this process in particular. I read the (quite good) book others mentioned in this thread and it was very helpful. I'd say that Dialog editing and this room tone threading process in particular took up a fairly large chunk of my time overall. I feel like I learned about 6 or 7 good roomtone tricks for dialog editing on this movie. Only 6 or 7 hundred to go until I'm on the level of some of the talent in this thread.

[soundbarnfool]

Originally Posted by ggegan

I have to say I'm shocked that a thread about room tone would have this much of a life.

Room tone is nothing more than spackle to smooth transitions and bridge gaps. A necessary evil that usually requires no more than 2 tracks in a session, only because you'll need to checkerboard it if its sonic content changes from scene to scene. But it doesn't really add anything to the movie, it just smears over problems with noisy location recordings.

Lately I've had some very experienced editors bringing me multiple 5.0 room tones for each scene and it's a total waste of my time having to fold them down so they can do the job properly. I really am not interested in putting junk noise in all 5 speakers. Just give me one well chosen mono for each scene and expend the effort cutting material that will add something interesting to the sonic landscape.

Well, I have heard some room tone that just gave me chills and totally added to the aesthetic of the film or tv show in question. Like the tail of "NYPD Blue". Or the sound of the trees rustling in "Twin Peaks". That was probably not 'sync sound'. If you think that was a waste of time... you're wrong! Or perhaps it is just a matter of terminology and you would call this 'wild'... Technically, I guess you'd be right, then...

[Lipflap]

Originally Posted by ggegan

I have to say I'm shocked that a thread about room tone would have this much of a life.

Room tone is nothing more than spackle to smooth transitions and bridge gaps. A necessary evil that usually requires no more than 2 tracks in a session, only because you'll need to checkerboard it if its sonic content changes from scene to scene. But it doesn't really add anything to the movie, it just smears over problems with noisy location recordings.

Lately I've had some very experienced editors bringing me multiple 5.0 room tones for each scene and it's a total waste of my time having to fold them down so they can do the job properly. I really am not interested in putting junk noise in all 5 speakers. Just give me one well chosen mono for each scene and expend the effort cutting material that will add something interesting to the sonic landscape.

“Spackle,” perhaps, but I’ve seen magicians with spackle mend my ceiling in ways I couldn’t have imagined possible. In the right hands, even humble ingredients result in magic.

Room tone is one of the basic element of dialogue editing (the other key element being alternate takes). It’s not a layer of noise to slather over a scene that’s misbehaving. Instead, it’s the breath and soul of a dialogue scene, the air that the scene breaths. And when a scene is acting up, it’s with room tone that you knock some sense into it.

As for describing room tone as the thing that “just smears over problems,” well, I guess you could see it that way. But you could similarly say of oil paint: “it’s just that stuff you smear over a canvas.” I know you are on the receiving end of all sorts of room tone editing and I can imagine how you could view the stuff as “just more noise,” but to hear room tone dismissed with such ease and viewed so insignificantly is like hearing insulting words about baby seals. I’m arguably rather passionate about room tone …

[ggegan]

Originally Posted by Lipflap

“Spackle,” perhaps, but I’ve seen magicians with spackle mend my ceiling in ways I couldn’t have imagined possible. In the right hands, even humble ingredients result in magic.

Room tone is one of the basic element of dialogue editing (the other key element being alternate takes). It’s not a layer of noise to slather over a scene that’s misbehaving. Instead, it’s the breath and soul of a dialogue scene, the air that the scene breaths. And when a scene is acting up, it’s with room tone that you knock some sense into it.

As for describing room tone as the thing that “just smears over problems,” well, I guess you could see it that way. But you could similarly say of oil paint: “it’s just that stuff you smear over a canvas.” I know you are on the receiving end of all sorts of room tone editing and I can imagine how you could view the stuff as “just more noise,” but to hear room tone dismissed with such ease and viewed so insignificantly is like hearing insulting words about baby seals. I’m arguably rather passionate about room tone …

Oh come on, let's not go overboard here. Breath and soul? Baby seals? It's noise that only exists to obscure other noise that becomes conspicuous when it goes away. Necessary? Very, but hardly oil paint. If you're passionate about it, I say to each his own, but I can think of better things to get excited about, like things that actually add drama and content to a scene. I don't mean to be disagreeable, but I think this has gotten way over intellectualized.

[ggegan]

Originally Posted by soundbarnfool

Well, I have heard some room tone that just gave me chills and totally added to the aesthetic of the film or tv show in question. Like the tail of "NYPD Blue". Or the sound of the trees rustling in "Twin Peaks". That was probably not 'sync sound'. If you think that was a waste of time... you're wrong! Or perhaps it is just a matter of terminology and you would call this 'wild'... Technically, I guess you'd be right, then...

I didn't say room tone was a waste of time. Cutting 5 tracks of stereo and 5.0 room tone wastes my time because I have to spend precious stage time sorting through it and making it mono. Tree rustling is not room tone. Room tone is predominately mic thermal noise and ventilation sounds when it is quiet and when it is loud it is all the nasty bg location noise the director wishes he/she could eliminate, but can't.