movies where theatrical mix = DVD mix

[danijel]

This is something I have asked long ago inside another thread, but it might have gone unnoticed, so I'm giving it another shot:

do you know of some movies whose theatrical printmaster was used for DVD as well without any alteration?

I think this would be of huge value to many of us (for studying), so if you have worked on such a film, or if you are in a position to find out, please post some titles here. A couple of titles would be great! Thanks!

[hummer]

yes, many. but they are usually older films where the audio is taken straight off the optical.

what kinds of destructive alterations typically happen to the audio prior to DVD release?

[danijel]

Originally Posted by hummer

yes, many. but they are usually older films where the audio is taken straight off the optical.

I presume many indy films go straight to DVD from printmaster, where budgets don't allow for a separate mix.....

Originally Posted by hummer

what kinds of destructive alterations typically happen to the audio prior to DVD release?

No, by 'alterations' I was referring to DVD re-mixing, not anything esoteric

[philper]

Originally Posted by danijel

I presume many indy films go straight to DVD from printmaster, where budgets don't allow for a separate mix.....


No, by 'alterations' I was referring to DVD re-mixing, not anything esoteric

Almost all the indies I've worked on had just one mix, and it was used for everything. This is particularly true of doc features (less money): the DVD and the theatrical distributor (if there is one) used the same stereo or LtRt. We used to get to do separate mixes for theatre and TV somewhat commonly, but not in recent years.

Philip Perkins

[georgia]

same here.... most indies just don't have the budget to do 3 versions... The best i've done for some of these low budget folk is compress the mix slightly, and lift the levels a tinge for broadcast/DVD so that i'm basically reducing the dynamic range and lifting the mix 3 to 6 db depending and still meeting broadcast or dvd specs as directed... But this is a REAL kludge and not the right answer. bottom line... this is a bad way to deliver a mix. I do this on a overall mix or I do it via stems and do a "polish" pass between stems, but this is still very much "polishing" with a Belt Sander.


cheers
geo

[Whitecat]

Originally Posted by georgia

same here.... most indies just don't have the budget to do 3 versions... The best i've done for some of these low budget folk is compress the mix slightly, and lift the levels a tinge for broadcast/DVD so that i'm basically reducing the dynamic range and lifting the mix 3 to 6 db depending and still meeting broadcast or dvd specs as directed... But this is a REAL kludge and not the right answer. bottom line... this is a bad way to deliver a mix. I do this on a overall mix or I do it via stems and do a "polish" pass between stems, but this is still very much "polishing" with a Belt Sander.

urgh, yes, I have had to do this as well, except I wasn't even the dubbing mixer! I was asked to "fix it up" for the DVD, which was more or less not really possible, so all I could do was compress the whole thing by about 3db, put a limiter at -10dbfs and deliver a new stereo file to them. I felt dirty, but the client was happy.

[BIGBANGBUZZ]

I find when renting DVD''s from the local shop that far to often I have to have the Remote on hand to ride levels as there is way too much dynamic range. Really annoying if you ask me.

I'll set the level so I can clearly hear people talking, then crash bang wallop the whole house is shaking and I have just woken up the kids who were fast a sleep.

So i'm guessing not many jobs these days get re-mixed anymore, or there is a problem in duplication or authoring. Ie the have used the wrong audio mix.

[postprosound]

I think that a lot of the majors are somewhat full range mixes. As an example, i ripped the no-edit 'scene' from Children of Men. When i brought the non altered files into PT, they peaked right at -1 dbfs. I guess it's on a per DVD basis.

[dr.sound]

Originally Posted by BIGBANGBUZZ

I find when renting DVD''s from the local shop that far to often I have to have the Remote on hand to ride levels as there is way too much dynamic range. Really annoying if you ask me.

I'll set the level so I can clearly hear people talking, then crash bang wallop the whole house is shaking and I have just woken up the kids who were fast a sleep.

So i'm guessing not many jobs these days get re-mixed anymore, or there is a problem in duplication or authoring. Ie the have used the wrong audio mix.

dr.sound replies:
THANK GOD!! It is nice to hear Movies with dynamic range. It takes a lot more skill to mix a movie with dynamics then it does to squash the hell out of it to satisfy some meter reader!!!
Sorry, but I don't want to listen to FM radio Feature Mixes that have 2 db of range.


Most Features are not re-mixed for DVD. Of those that are, I must say that Sony does the best translation in my experience.

[ggegan]

Originally Posted by postprosound

I think that a lot of the majors are somewhat full range mixes. As an example, i ripped the no-edit 'scene' from Children of Men. When i brought the non altered files into PT, they peaked right at -1 dbfs. I guess it's on a per DVD basis.

From what I have experienced doing DVD versions for a number of Sony shows, we didn't generally lower the loudest sounds, we raised the lowest sounds and made sure the dialog played comfortably through nearfields at 80 SPL (actually, it might have been 79 - can't recall). So a remastered DVD soundtrack could still show -1dBfs peaks even though the dynamic range was reduced. Since we worked from separate Dia, Group, FX, BG, Foley, Score and Source MX stems we were generally able to just adjust the elements that needed adjusting without having to squish the entire mix.

We also checked the entire mix in three formats and tweaked as needed: nearfield 5.1, nearfield Lt/Rt stereo, and Lt/Rt through CRT built in stereo speakers.

I used to disapprove of Sony's specs because I felt it compromised the integrity of the original mix, but I eventually came to realize that, when done properly, the remastered DVD mix actually replicates the theatrical experience on small home theater systems better than just using the original mix. ( I hope I expressed that clearly)

[Ry-Fi]

Originally Posted by BIGBANGBUZZ

I find when renting DVD''s from the local shop that far to often I have to have the Remote on hand to ride levels as there is way too much dynamic range. Really annoying if you ask me.

I'll set the level so I can clearly hear people talking, then crash bang wallop the whole house is shaking and I have just woken up the kids who were fast a sleep.

So i'm guessing not many jobs these days get re-mixed anymore, or there is a problem in duplication or authoring. Ie the have used the wrong audio mix.

Are you aware that the Dolby Digital spec (and thus most DD decoders) include a variable dynamic range reduction system? I find it almost a must to use my receiver at 75% or 50% dynamic range when watching movies, especially since I live in an apartment.

Unfortunately, DTS doesn't have this feature.

[danijel]

Can somebody name at least one title that is generally available, or available from on-line stores?

[jahtao]

Originally Posted by danijel

Can somebody name at least one title that is generally available, or available from on-line stores?

+1

[Jesse Peterson]

There's a walk n talk called "the good night". Based on some of the HF junk I hear in the dialog, I don't think this has been altered from the theater mix at all.

[ggegan]

Originally Posted by danijel

Can somebody name at least one title that is generally available, or available from on-line stores?

How would anyone know? These days the re-mastering is often done without any consultation with the original mixers or even the director. There aren't any disclaimers or statements sent out or attached to the box.

[hummer]

Originally Posted by danijel

Can somebody name at least one title that is generally available, or available from on-line stores?

Basically anything that Janus Films/Criterion Collection puts out is the printmaster. It is typically restored to some degree, and a proper EQ curve is probably applied, but there is no remixing.

Is this what you're asking? If so, there's 500 or so titles for you to choose from.

[jimlongo]

Consider also, remastering aside, there is also dvd authoring which often does the AC3 encoding which can also include preset compression settings.

[postprosound]

Originally Posted by ggegan

From what I have experienced doing DVD versions for a number of Sony shows, we didn't generally lower the loudest sounds, we raised the lowest sounds and made sure the dialog played comfortably through nearfields at 80 SPL (actually, it might have been 79 - can't recall). So a remastered DVD soundtrack could still show -1dBfs peaks even though the dynamic range was reduced. Since we worked from separate Dia, Group, FX, BG, Foley, Score and Source MX stems we were generally able to just adjust the elements that needed adjusting without having to squish the entire mix.

We also checked the entire mix in three formats and tweaked as needed: nearfield 5.1, nearfield Lt/Rt stereo, and Lt/Rt through CRT built in stereo speakers.

I used to disapprove of Sony's specs because I felt it compromised the integrity of the original mix, but I eventually came to realize that, when done properly, the remastered DVD mix actually replicates the theatrical experience on small home theater systems better than just using the original mix. ( I hope I expressed that clearly)

Oh, I didn't think of it that way. That would explain why still sound pretty dynamic.

That being said, two years ago i received a 'for your consideration' of The Departed. That, i think sounded very similar to what was on the dub stage. Considering i got the dvd a short time after the movie came out, and the fact that they were making small picture changes very close to release, i'd bet they sent that out with little or no changes.

[danijel]

Originally Posted by ggegan

How would anyone know? These days the re-mastering is often done without any consultation with the original mixers or even the director. There aren't any disclaimers or statements sent out or attached to the box.

I guess I was hoping you or someone else would remember a producer nervously biting his nails behind your back during the printmastering, and than ask you for a discreet mix to take it straight to the encoding and DVD duplicating factory.....

Originally Posted by hummer

Basically anything that Janus Films/Criterion Collection puts out is the printmaster. It is typically restored to some degree, and a proper EQ curve is probably applied, but there is no remixing.

Is this what you're asking? If so, there's 500 or so titles for you to choose from.

No, I was not hoping for an EQ-ed mix, and not for one that is 40 years old either

Originally Posted by jimlongo

Consider also, remastering aside, there is also dvd authoring which often does the AC3 encoding which can also include preset compression settings.

This is not a problem, because you can rip the sound without applying any compression or normalization. The only real difference would be the lossy encoding itself, but I could live with that.

[bcgood]

Great idea Danijel. It would be nice to listen to a DVD mix knowing that is was very similar or the "same" as the original theatrical release for reference.

[charles maynes]

New quote there Georgia...

"but this is still very much "polishing" with a Belt Sander. "

[BIGBANGBUZZ]

Originally Posted by dr.sound

dr.sound replies:
THANK GOD!! It is nice to hear Movies with dynamic range. It takes a lot more skill to mix a movie with dynamics then it does to squash the hell out of it to satisfy some meter reader!!!
Sorry, but I don't want to listen to FM radio Feature Mixes that have 2 db of range.


Most Features are not re-mixed for DVD. Of those that are, I must say that Sony does the best translation in my experience.

I like dynamic range, I just don't like having to play, lets ride the remote.

[BIGBANGBUZZ]

Originally Posted by Ry-Fi

Are you aware that the Dolby Digital spec (and thus most DD decoders) include a variable dynamic range reduction system? I find it almost a must to use my receiver at 75% or 50% dynamic range when watching movies, especially since I live in an apartment.

Unfortunately, DTS doesn't have this feature.

My set-up is an old Xbox into a 5.1 pansonic home theatre in a box via s/pdif.
Maybe there is a problem with my set-up?

Does anyone else find some mixes don't translate well to smaller systems or is it just me?

[hummer]

Originally Posted by danijel

No, I was not hoping for an EQ-ed mix, and not for one that is 40 years old either

Um... I think I answered your question. How about all the Wes Anderson films on Criterion? Or the countless others that are modern? Last Emperor, Silence of the Lambs, Naked Lunch, Europa, My Own Private Idaho, Chungking Express, Chasing Amy...

I can assure you that these have very little (or no) EQ applied. The differences between the audio on these titles and the audio for the theatrical release is as close to nothing as it gets.

If that doesn't help you, I don't think anything will.

[edit machine]

Originally Posted by danijel

I guess I was hoping you or someone else would remember a producer nervously biting his nails behind your back during the printmastering, and than ask you for a discreet mix to take it straight to the encoding and DVD duplicating factory.....

this never happens, the producer is going to leave with the printmaster after the printmastering session anyway, that's just how it goes, they don't have to be discreet about it, it's their job to deal with such materials.

Here are 2 you can get on dvd:

Choking Man : Choking Man (2006)
Rank : Rank (2006)

[huub]

Originally Posted by Ry-Fi

Are you aware that the Dolby Digital spec (and thus most DD decoders) include a variable dynamic range reduction system? I find it almost a must to use my receiver at 75% or 50% dynamic range when watching movies, especially since I live in an apartment.

Unfortunately, DTS doesn't have this feature.

But the dd range reduction sounds pretty awful!
I'd rather have a mixer make a nice sounding mix with less dynamics..
At home wide range dynamics is pretty annoying I think..

[danijel]

Originally Posted by edit machine

Choking Man : Choking Man (2006)
Rank : Rank (2006)

edit machine - man,

thanks! (Sorry for the delay, I somehow missed your post.)

Those two look like fun, I look forward to watching them

If you find time, can you share some technical details about either of the mixes?
Where were they mixed (or, if that's confidential, what were the room properties like size, screen-size, mix-position distance from screen, what monitoring etc), how long did the film spend on a dub stage (was it a mix-check job, a mix with pre-mixes brought in, or a full-blown dub-stage mix), and anything else you find might be interesting for someone listening to the mix in a near-field setting.

Thanks again!

Originally Posted by edit machine

this never happens, the producer is going to leave with the printmaster after the printmastering session anyway, that's just how it goes, they don't have to be discreet about it, it's their job to deal with such materials.

Sorry, I wasn't very clear - what I meant by 'descreet mix' was six separate channels of mix, non-encoded.

[danijel]

Originally Posted by hummer

Um... I think I answered your question. How about all the Wes Anderson films on Criterion?

Wes Anderson?

"The Criterion Collection, a continuing series of important classic and contemporary films on DVD"

Ah, 'contemporary' - that explains it.

Hummer, thanks - I too have many films that I suspect didn't receive a DVD remix, but I was looking for a straight answer from someone who worked on a specific film.

[danijel]

Originally Posted by hummer

I can assure you that these have very little (or no) EQ applied.

I need as much mixes directly off of dub-stage (without ANY EQ or any other processing), because I'd like to try and set some kind of EQ-curve in my monitoring so to be as close as possible when I bring my pre-mix onto a dub stage.

[edit machine]

Originally Posted by danijel

Sorry, I wasn't very clear - what I meant by 'descreet mix' was six separate channels of mix, non-encoded.

oh discreet channel mixes, yes those are always delivered as well. it's standard to hand off all of those various versions, non encoded 5.1 mix & stems, dolby printmaster, various kinds of dowmixes... it does make it hard to nail down exactly which one will end up on dvd.