Motion picture dialogue editing on Nuendo

[Lipflap]

Does anyone have any strong feelings - positive or negative - about editing production sound for dramatic feature films on a Nuendo? If you're experienced with dialogue editing on Nuendo, can you describe its greatest dialogue-oriented features (the things that make you stop and say, "Wow, this is really an improvement; I can't believe I lived without this"), as well as its weaknesses.
Thanks,

[jrfountain]

I've gotta say that clip gain is probably the best feature of editing in Nuendo, especially if you end up mixing in Nuendo. You basically don't have to touch the faders which is great for the mixer. You can also draw in clip gain automation that stays with the clip.

Biggest thing that I could see sucking for dialog is that the time compression/expansion tool that you use to drag a region out or in with sounds pretty brutal. There is a TCE plugin that is better but it's not as intuitive to use.

JR

[kk@jamsync.com]

Originally Posted by Lipflap

Does anyone have any strong feelings - positive or negative - about editing production sound for dramatic feature films on a Nuendo? If you're experienced with dialogue editing on Nuendo, can you describe its greatest dialogue-oriented features (the things that make you stop and say, "Wow, this is really an improvement; I can't believe I lived without this"), as well as its weaknesses.
Thanks,

I like the fact that I can edit dialog with headphones on a plane w/o some huge hardware dongle dragging me down (usb key is no big deal). Clip-based editing is second to none also.

[Jesse Peterson]

Pros
Nuendo is great. I 2nd what everyone else said. I think my fav is when you drag a clip to an empty space, it'll create a new track with all the same settings as the orginal.. this includes eq, automation and buss info etc. I use this with Dx editing all the time. I also really like the custom keycommands you can do. You can also create linked commands, one button can do as many things as you want in the order you specify. Really saves time.

Cons
Although exporting your dial tracks is quick, it'd be nice if it were a little more seamless to get my work to a pro tools stage. Pro Tools mixers that don't know nuendo assume things about my abilities, kind of a nasty stigma.

[KarmaPolice]

Offline rendering of FX is great in Nuendo. You have kind of an
undo list for each clip allowing you to remove an Effect without having to undo
everything else.

That simple audition tool in Nuendo is nice. I´m really missing that in
Pro Tools when editing dialogue.

I think I prefere Pro Tools for final mixing but for dialogue editing/ premixing
atmo/fx I prefere Nuendo.

btw comparing Nuendo 3 to PT TDM 6.4.

[danijel]

Originally Posted by jrfountain

Biggest thing that I could see sucking for dialog is that the time compression/expansion tool that you use to drag a region out or in with sounds pretty brutal.

JR, have you tried using the MPEX2 algorithm set to 1 (monophonic)? I find it extremely good for dialogue. Setting of 4 (polyphonic) is also great for polyphonic stuff like music editing.


@ OP:

Pros:
clip-gain (used to be a PT deal-breaker for me, now I got used to it and it's not a big deal),
offline processing history (as we do less and less things offline, this is becoming less important).

Cons:
You cannot draw (in less than 6 clicks) an accurate horizontal automation line in Nuedno!!!!! - There is a tool that draws a straight line, but your hand has to be pixel accurate for the value at the beginning and the one at the end to be the same.

I work closely with three (currently two) editors that use both programs equally, and they slightly prefer PT for editing. Maybe one of them chimes in?

[jrfountain]

Danijel, I didn't realize you could change the algorithm on that. I just found that in the preferences, nice. I'll try it out. Thanks.

Pro for Nuendo - lots of preferences to customize
Con for Nuendo - lots of preferences to forget to set properly

Something else I have never found as smooth in Nuendo compared to PT is waveform drawing. You have to open the sample editor to do it, which I think sucks, plus the drawing action is very tricky to use. I have a very hard time drawing a smooth line to remove clicks.

Custom key commands are huge as others have said. You can really speed up your workflow with them. I'd be curious if I could cut as fast in PT now as I can in Nuendo.

JR

[Jesse Peterson]

Originally Posted by danijel

Cons:
You cannot draw (in less than 6 clicks) an accurate horizontal automation line in Nuedno!!!!! - There is a tool that draws a straight line, but your hand has to be pixel accurate for the value at the beginning and the one at the end to be the same.

If I'm understanding you correctly.. I have a quick fix for this that you could try.. I do it a lot and the whole straight line bit is a non issue for me
pm me

[danijel]

Originally Posted by Jesse Peterson

If I'm understanding you correctly.. I have a quick fix for this that you could try.. I do it a lot and the whole straight line bit is a non issue for me
pm me

I will, thanks.

[Lipflap]

Thanks to everyone who's replied to this string so far. I can't say I'm any less confused as to how much sense it makes to cut dialogue on a Nuendo, but I do feel I have some people to turn to with questions.
cheers,

[Jesse Peterson]

I think it's just a different color hammer for the same nail. I'd be happy to answer any of your questions anytime.

[sound vision]

have you tried using the MPEX2 algorithm set to 1 (monophonic)? I find it extremely good for dialogue. Setting of 4 (polyphonic) is also great for polyphonic stuff like music editing

I completely agree

I find fading from the top status bar helpful for very subtle fades....with out zooming all the way in and all the way out.

[ErikG]

John

I've been a die hard PT user since its inception (with some audio vision thrown in).

When you have found a workflow in Nuendo its very hard and annoying to go back to PT.

My personal fav's have been mentioned already, but here are my reasons:
# Auditioning tool (play/scrub). With this you can listen to ANY clip (muted or not) so you can have a quick listen to an alternative or the guide without unmuting/solo or anything. Just click on it. Saves me a lot of time.
# Clip Level and clip level drawing. SO much faster to just scroll the wheel on the mouse to raise lower the level of the clip compared to switching to level automation selecting the clip snd usig the trimmer to change the clip level on PT. AND this level is totally independent from the fader level automation, you can get pretty close without ever touching the faders, this leaves me the faders free for true fader automation for finishing up or going into the main mix room to do a proper dia mix.
# Clip history for undoing "audio suite" type effects processing. I never need to have a dup. on another track.
# Keycommands and macros. This is a huge workflow addiction!
Setting the keycomands up YOUR way is fast (when you learn it and dont change it any more, developing the layout and setup does take some time and effort addmitedly). With Macros you can build advanced functionality that originally wasnt in the program... Or just setup some basic fast handy help doing things like crop range (cmdT in PT); extend in/out points 4 frames; Fade in/out 4 frames. You can also set up combined automation modes that you often chage between.
# The Pool where you can organize stuff in folders mind you...
This makes it a hell of a lot easier to find stuff when you have your location sound in one folder (or several depending on work style) and ADR in one and temp mixes in another etc.

Gotta run, kids have to go to school...

# Export audio, for fast deliveries of temp mixes to SFX/music etc while working as this only takes a fraction of real time.

[Andrew Mottl]

Hey there, sorry I'm late at joining in, was busy at Tonmeistertagung here in Germany...

Some stuff I love about DLG editing in Nuendo:

- the often mentioned clip gain: it allows me to more or less visually "premix" a track simply by levelling the dialog waveforms by eye. I play a track, see that the next clip will be softer, mouse arrow over the clip level value in the info bar, mouse wheel up or down to adjust to taste, done.

- clip gain and drawing volume curves on the clip lets you get your levels right BEFORE any inserts. your compressor will have a constant level at the input. UNLIKE ProTools Volume curves (these are automation)... trim plugin helps here though, but I find it a little awkward in comparisson...

- the audition in the pool! Great for finding alternate takes. Once you have, simply double clicking the file opens the audio editor. Use the audition speaker to find the sentence, select it with the range tool, copy and paste to your project editing window (I remember you might need to keep the waveform editing window open until you have pasted though, not sure if this has changed in N4).

- waveform editor copy/paste (see above)! In PT you always need a "spare track" to drag the file to from the region list, find your sentenc, cut, move etc...
also great for finding room tone to clean dolly squeaks etc: double click on the event, find silence, and copy and paste to the edit

- audio shifting (alt+ctrl+drag in N3, alt+shift+drag in N4 I think): allows you to shift the audio in the click with the mouse. PT has this feature only in nudge form (grid size) as far as I know. Great for getting timing of the odd out of sync sound right, or editing atmo/room tone simply by shifting the material within the clip (clip bounds might be set correctly for the scene, but you would like to move a certain cue by a few frames)

- replacing clip material by another audio file: Shift+drag a file from the pool to a clip to replace the audio. Great for changing from boom mic to the radio mic clip (same time code and lenght), or replacing file denoised in an external application.
Also great: I had an AAF from Premiere that only opened in PTLE, but with most audio clips missing. No chance of relinking in PT, so I exported to AAF and opened in N4. There I had empty clips, but with the scene/take names of the original WAVs. So I shift+dragged the files from the Pool/Mediabay (simpler version of sth. like soundminer) to the clips and had the AAF recreated within an hour or so.


Just my few cents, it's down to what gets you going creatively best, without having to think too much about the "how".


Feel free to ask of PM if you have any workflow or feature questions.

[Lipflap]

Thanks again to everyone who's contributed to this thread. It seems I will survive the move to Nuendo, if need be.

[pkautzsch]

Originally Posted by Andrew Mottl

without having to think too much about the "how"

Which is precisely what makes Nuendo so much more comfortable than PT.

[mixboy bob]

Originally Posted by Lipflap

Thanks again to everyone who's contributed to this thread. It seems I will survive the move to Nuendo, if need be.

Hi John,

Can I ask WHY the switch to Nuendo? It doesn't really sound like you're too enthused about it!

peace

Rob Burrell
aka mixboy

[Andrew Mottl]

... yet ;-)

No, seriously, I was wondering too...

[Lipflap]

Originally Posted by mixboy bob

Hi John,

Can I ask WHY the switch to Nuendo? It doesn't really sound like you're too enthused about it!

peace

Rob Burrell
aka mixboy

I don't want to take any swipes at a DAW that I've never used, and although I'm really comfortable with Pro Tools (as once I was at ease with AMS AudioFile and then Sonic Solutions), I'm not vested in sticking with Digi. The migration is simple: someone's offered me a new room, and this someone is very Nuendo embedded. What more can I say?

[dogandpony]

I found the learning curve from PT's to Nuendo a bit steep but now that I'm in it I would find it hard to go back. If you haven't seen it before, there is a PT's keyboard shortcut file at the Nuendo Post forum, nuendo-post.com. Might make your migration simpler. john.

[Andrew Mottl]

Once you've switched over, take some time to look through all the Nuendo commands in the keyboard shortcut preferences - might find some that will get your work done quicker. And then there are macros to build from these commands....