Is DTS OK on my record label DVD-V release?

[Killahurts]

Hi everyone,

I'm finishing up an album project that will be a 2 disc set - an audio CD of course, and a DVD video. The DVD contains a conceptual video for each song, and will contain stereo PCM (24 bit, 48k), and a 5.0 surround stream. I want the music in the surround stream to be as high quality as I can possibly get, so I plan to use DTS rather than AC3, or maybe both if they fit. I have purchased The Surround Audio Suite (SAS) from DTS, and am planning to encode at the highest bit rate allowed (what is it, 1509 kbs, or something like that?).

The final product will be released on a label, that knows almost nothing about surround. My first question is, do I have to have some sort of permission from DTS for the label to put this product out, or is it like AC3, where I apparently don't. I can't get any of the DTS people to return my phone calls or emails.

And my second question is, since I'll be authoring the DVD myself in DVDSP, are there any pitfalls I should know about? I plan to put the PCM stream first, and the DTS (.cpt) file in audio slot 2. Hopefully, I'll figure out how to make the 2 options choose-able from an audio setup menu.

I've done a fair amout of surround mixing (for other producers) but I've always delivered full resolution stems to them, and they've done whatever encoding.

And, if I can offer AC3, I think Compressor can do all that for me, right?

Thanks in advance!

[Jay-]

Im not an expert but is it DVD-A? Its DVD-V? Video?

I did a DVD-A and it wont play on any PC. (I would think 24 bit DVD would be popular but nooooo)

I cant imagine how they let that one go.
NO software for me worked and I even did test OLD software that was supposed to work.

Plays in a TV but not a PC or Mac!

[Killahurts]

Hi Jay, thanks for the response. Yes it is a standard DVD-V, I'm not doing a DVD-A.

About playing any surround stream on a computer, I think you must have a (software) decoder installed to do that. I know they're out there for PC's and Macs (some might be free?), but I don't actually have one either! With this surround material though, I'm just targeting DVD players/ home theaters.

My question has more to do with the legalities of putting out a commercial product with DTS surround. All the music-centric DVDs I have that use DTS for surround are put out by, or in some way licensed by DTS Entertainment, Inc. (I'm excluding movies here).

A very good example of the kind of DVD-V I want to release is BT's This Binary Universe. It only has DTS for the 5.1 surround stream, no AC3. Then I look on the cover/liner notes, and see that it's produced under exclusive license by DTS, Inc. My record label has no associations with DTS, so...

[minister]

You have to include the AC3, can't do DTS only. Part of the DVD spec.

[Killahurts]

Thanks minister, but now I'm really confused

I thought the DVD-V spec was that you could have DTS as the sole surround stream, but you also must include either stereo LPCM, or AC3 2.0 as the primary audio (audio track 1).

Since I plan to include stereo PCM as the primary (and default) track, with the surround track accessible through an "audio setup" menu..

You're basically saying that if I want to have surround on my disc, it has to be Dolby?

Unfortunately, there's no emoticon on Gearslutz that shows me putting my forehead down into the palm of my hand.

[TVPostSound]

PCM is optional, AC3 is mandatory.
Yes if the 2.0 is AC3, then you CAN use DTS as the sole surround.


This is a direct quote:

Up to a maximum of 8 audio streams can be multiplexed into the same cell with a single video stream. Each stream for example is designated for a particular language or special effects & music tracks.

Dolby AC-3 used mandatory for 525/60 (NTSC) players and MPEG-2 is mandatory for 625/50 (PAL) players, but optional on discs themselves.
LPCM (Linear Pulse Code Modulated) is mandatory for all players, but optional on discs themselves.
48 kHz and 96 kHz uncompressed PCM audio

High Definition Audio Experience
A 525/60 disc must contain either Dolby AC-3 or LPCM.
A 625/50 disc must contain either MPEG-2 audio or LPCM. Due to bandwidth efficiency, most titles will use the more compact Dolby AC-3 or MPEG-2 audio.

Extendibility is reserved for new algorithms such as DTS, Sony SDDS, et al.

IEC-958 Digital Audio Interface for external decoder/receiver. Output types: compressed AC-3 or MPEG stream, two channel LPCM. DVD players are required only to output a full reconstruction of the Left and Right channels. An external AC-3 decoder would optionally decode all 5.1 channels. A more expensive DVD player would output all 5.1 reconstructed channels.

[soundguydave]

You need to keep in mind that not every home theater system is DTS compatible.

[Killahurts]

Originally Posted by soundguydave

You need to keep in mind that not every home theater system is DTS compatible.

Yes, I know, but..

Again, my goal is to get the highest sound quality possible, for both the stereo and surround tracks. For stereo, to me that means PCM. For surround, it means DTS.

It appears from what you guys have said, there cannot be DTS on a disc without some form of AC3, period.

Since the stereo track is the default, and since it is the master of an album, I feel I must stick with 24/48 PCM for that.

That means I have to include the 5.0 surround in both AC3 and DTS, or if they don't all fit on the disc, just the AC3 for surround, right?

If that's true, I will reserve my disgust for the short-sighted business mooks who finalized all these unnecessary limitations into the DVD spec for another time.

Thanks to everyone who responded!

[Jesse Peterson]

Just wanted to add, I've gone through 3 different cheapo theater in a box setups in my living room over the years... none of them can play 24bit. Not to say that there aren't systems out there that can do it, but I'd say it's safe to say that most of the target market does not have a monster listening system. Play it safe. I would author the disc to give the listener audio options

audio1 - dolby stereo or surround ac3
audio2 - DTS
audio3 - Stereo 16/48 PCM

if you album is of average album length, you should be able to fit it all. Consider DVD-9 if it doesn't. Keep in mind though that DVD-9 is a bit of a different animal as far as authoring goes. Research layer break calculation and talk to your manufacturer about they're delivery needs. Some need 2 DLT tapes but some will be ok with each layer on a seperate data DVD-5

good luck man

[soundguydave]

Originally Posted by Killahurts

Yes, I know, but..

Again, my goal is to get the highest sound quality possible, for both the stereo and surround tracks. For stereo, to me that means PCM. For surround, it means DTS.

It appears from what you guys have said, there cannot be DTS on a disc without some form of AC3, period.

Since the stereo track is the default, and since it is the master of an album, I feel I must stick with 24/48 PCM for that.

That means I have to include the 5.0 surround in both AC3 and DTS, or if they don't all fit on the disc, just the AC3 for surround, right?

If that's true, I will reserve my disgust for the short-sighted business mooks who finalized all these unnecessary limitations into the DVD spec for another time.

Thanks to everyone who responded!

Your goal is to have the highest quality possible, but probably over half your audience won't be able to hear the surround mix if you only include DTS. Even if you do put both DTS and AC3 on the DVD, most people won't know how to change the stream anyway and most of them won't be able to hear the difference.

Also if the album is normal length, 60-80 minutes, you should have no problem fitting video, stereo mix, AC3 and DTS on a DVD.

[TVPostSound]

Also if the album is normal length, 60-80 minutes, you should have no problem fitting video, stereo mix, AC3 and DTS on a DVD.

And a couple of commentary tracks!!

[Killahurts]

Originally Posted by soundguydave

Your goal is to have the highest quality possible, but probably over half your audience won't be able to hear the surround mix if you only include DTS.

OK, you've convinced me on that one.

Even if you do put both DTS and AC3 on the DVD, most people won't know how to change the stream anyway and most of them won't be able to hear the difference.

I don't and will never subscribe to that philosophy. It goes against everything I strive for in my productions. They may not be aware that they perceive the difference, but their minds do.

Most, you said.. not all

Also if the album is normal length, 60-80 minutes, you should have no problem fitting video, stereo mix, AC3 and DTS on a DVD.

Now that's excellent news! The album/video is about 50 minutes, no extras. So at this point, I plan to put:

Audio 1: LPCM @24 bits, 48k

Audio 2: AC3 5.0

Audio 3: DTS 5.0

Thank you soundguydave, that was a very helpful post! And thanks to everyone here for helping me sort all this out.

[soundguydave]

You'll have enough room to put all that it on there twice

[neilwilkes]

Originally Posted by Killahurts

Hi everyone,

I'm finishing up an album project that will be a 2 disc set - an audio CD of course, and a DVD video. The DVD contains a conceptual video for each song, and will contain stereo PCM (24 bit, 48k), and a 5.0 surround stream. I want the music in the surround stream to be as high quality as I can possibly get, so I plan to use DTS rather than AC3, or maybe both if they fit. I have purchased The Surround Audio Suite (SAS) from DTS, and am planning to encode at the highest bit rate allowed (what is it, 1509 kbs, or something like that?).

The final product will be released on a label, that knows almost nothing about surround. My first question is, do I have to have some sort of permission from DTS for the label to put this product out, or is it like AC3, where I apparently don't. I can't get any of the DTS people to return my phone calls or emails.

And my second question is, since I'll be authoring the DVD myself in DVDSP, are there any pitfalls I should know about? I plan to put the PCM stream first, and the DTS (.cpt) file in audio slot 2. Hopefully, I'll figure out how to make the 2 options choose-able from an audio setup menu.

I've done a fair amout of surround mixing (for other producers) but I've always delivered full resolution stems to them, and they've done whatever encoding.

And, if I can offer AC3, I think Compressor can do all that for me, right?

Thanks in advance!

Hello there.
Firstly, I apologise if any of what I write here has already been posted. I did not go through the thread (laziness?) as I do this all the time & thought I could go straight to the point.

1 - The DVD-Video specifications say that stream #1 must be LPCM or AC3 (Dolby Digital) so you'll be just fine with 24/48 stereo as stream #1. The caveat here is that not all DVD players are actually capable of outputting a 24-bit stream & they truncate to 16-bits. It's rare, but be aware this is - technically - out of spec. All that is actually mandated in DVD-Video for LPCM is 16/48 - 20/24-48 & 20/24-96 are strictly optional.
2 - Why bother with a Dolby Digital stream for a music disc? Go straight to DTS , and make sure you use full bitrate too. Dolby stinks musically - the transient smearing is simply awful, and if you use the 384kbps option is non directional above 10KHz (14KHz or so at 448kbps). All surround fans have DTS capability, and if you can have cream why would you want curds?
3 - You need no special permissions from DTS. Your license when you bought your encoder is your permission, and there is a section of the DTS website where you can register the title as well for free inclusion in their databases too.
See DTS | Licensing and Trademark | Licensee Resources
where you will need to create a profile, and then you'll get access.
You will also get logo downloads.
For Dolby, to use logos on packaging you must fulfil certain criteria:
Usage of a licensed encoder (there is a list on their website)
Supply a sample of the packaging & the encoded work for approval.
You most certainly DO need permission from Dolby Labs to use any Dolby Digital logos. Additionally, AC3 is not free technology - although I am not certain I suspect the encoder in DVDSP is a licensed one. You'll never catch me running a Mac though - especially not DVDSP either. Got bitten by that one once before where it did not properly mux a DTS bitstream & cut to silence after 8 minutes running time on a bonus track. Never again.

Authoring.
You must have the LPCM stream as Audio #1 - DTS is an optional codec and cannot be at stream #1. The master will get rejected by the plant if you do this.
Setting the preferred stream is a simple matter.
SetSTN (audio=x) where x = the stream number you are trying to access.
You can put this on a button, but the button would have to link to a PGC menu or a VTS menu, as you cannot put a set condition & a branch to anything other than a menu. Simply set the command to this:
LPCM = SetSTN (audio=0), LinkPGCN x (where x is a dummy menu with a pre command pointing at track #1. or else a playlist menu with no pre-command)
DTS = SetSTN (audio=1), LinkPGCN x - same as above.

The DTS stream should be as a .cpt stream,. although a .dts stream should also work (not in DVDSP though)

Video stream.
Do NOT use a slideshow - this will screw with compatibility on older players.
Instead, try using a very low bitrate M2V stream instead (2Mbps from high res TIFF files will do nicely). Avoid using JPEG for anything, menus, slides, whatever - just don't do it. TIFF is uncompressed & looks far better.
Menu design.
For 4:3, create/edit at 720x540, scale to required TV standard.
For 16:9, create/edit NTSC at 854x480, scale to 720x480 & PAL at 1024x576 & scale to 720x576.

If the audio really is important & you have the budget, seriously consider DVD-Audio/Video. Again, we do this all the time & the difference in quality is very obvious - even compared to DTS (which is great) and against AC3 there is no competition. Caveats are that you must avoid using Abstraction Layer DVD-V authoring. Feel free to PM me for details on that.

Good Luck.

[neilwilkes]

Originally Posted by soundguydave

Your goal is to have the highest quality possible, but probably over half your audience won't be able to hear the surround mix if you only include DTS. Even if you do put both DTS and AC3 on the DVD, most people won't know how to change the stream anyway and most of them won't be able to hear the difference.

Also if the album is normal length, 60-80 minutes, you should have no problem fitting video, stereo mix, AC3 and DTS on a DVD.

Run time not an issue.
However, anyone who cannot pick DTS over DD is either:
A - deaf,
B - listening on seriously substandard gear,
C - using very badly mixed/mastered audio.

I would also say that 99% of surround fans have DTS capability.
As for not knowing how to change it, then the words "AUDIO SETUP" right on the main menu are the usual clue.
In all honesty there is far more chance a 24-bit stereo stream will cause trouble compared to a surround head not having DTS capability.
AC3 (DD) stinks sonically so badly the smell is offensive.

[soundguydave]

That's fine, but I would rather be compatible with 100% of my audience, rather than just 99%. Not including something that will potentially cost you fans / sales is just plain foolish and shortsighted.

[Killahurts]

Neil, as of this morning, you are my new HERO!

So much great information, thank you! I agree with all you wrote, especially about audio quality. Going omni after 10kHz. is totally unacceptable for me, end of story.

I last wrote here that I planned to have an AC3 surround stream on the disc, but have since changed my mind, because I found out (even before reading your excellent post) that I indeed DO NOT have to include a Dolby stream on the disc to have DTS.

Besides, why should I "submit for approval" audio that sounds like shit in the first place, to a company that could reject it and hold up my release? Just not my style.

For the 24/48 LPCM problem, I've thought of this possible solution: To keep the files 24 bit, but apply a dither at the 16 bit level during mastering. My theory is that if the player truncates to 16 bits, the dither will save me from the crunchy monster, but not really affect the 24 bit experience for the capable players (well, not too much anyway). I hope it works, but like I said, it's just a theory.

BTW, no chance of me not using DVDSP for this project, it's too late for that- but I did read somewhere that the newest version fixes the DTS problem you refered to, so we'll see..

I'll report back when I add the streams in later this week. Meanwhile, I'm having a BALL mixing this stuff in surround (on my S3A's), I feel like a kid in the candy shop!

[kind]

Originally Posted by Killahurts

I don't and will never subscribe to that philosophy. It goes against everything I strive for in my productions. They may not be aware that they perceive the difference, but their minds do.

Most, you said.. not all

Now that's excellent news! The album/video is about 50 minutes, no extras. So at this point, I plan to put:
Audio 1: LPCM @24 bits, 48k
Audio 2: AC3 5.0
Audio 3: DTS 5.0

Hi I agree with Neil. If its mainly a music DVD-Video then PCM and DTS is what I use. You may have to lower the bitrate of your videos to allow for both audio streams. I haven't been able to hear any real difference using 24 bit audio other than it lowers the available video bandwidth. I've had some problems using more than two audio streams on some DVD-Video players. The 3rd stream doesn't seem to get recognized but this could be the fault of the Adobe Encore.

[kk@jamsync.com]

Originally Posted by TVPostSound

PCM is optional, AC3 is mandatory.
Yes if the 2.0 is AC3, then you CAN use DTS as the sole surround.

.

No, Neil Wilkes is correct in that the first track may be PCM and the second may be DTS. "Mandatory" means that *one* of the mandatory selections must be used in the first track, not all.

[TVPostSound]

If PCM is the primary track, a Dolby AC3 track is still mandatory.
If an AC3 track is primary, as in 2.0 Lo/Ro AC3 encoded, then PCM is not required, and
DTS MAY be used as the SOLE surround track.

[Killahurts]

Well, it appears we have some conflicting information here.

I was just watching BT's excellent "This Binary Universe" DVD-V. It has stereo PCM and DTS digital surround as the only choice for audio, asks you which one you want when you put the disc in.

Since it was co-produced with DTS Entertainment, Inc., one couldn't very well expect them to put Dolby on the disc, for obvious reasons, right? This was confirmed for me when I finally talked to a product specialist at DTS a couple days ago...

Not trying to start an argument here guys.. just saying.

[kk@jamsync.com]

Originally Posted by TVPostSound

If PCM is the primary track, a Dolby AC3 track is still mandatory.
.

No! Many, many DVD-Vs have been authored with *only* a PCM track. You may have either AC3 or PCM as the first (and only) audio track.

I suggest you check Jim Taylor's excellent "DVD Demystified" if you wish to learn about the facts. Also his "dvdfaq" at dvddemystified.com is a very useful resource.

There's no argument here. These are simply the facts of the spec.

[TVPostSound]

You can believe everything you read on the web, I quoted the ITU recommendation.

Now, would you stop stalking me??tutt

[kk@jamsync.com]

Originally Posted by TVPostSound

You can believe everything you read on the web, I quoted the ITU recommendation.

Now, would you stop stalking me??tutt

You are misstating the facts. I've authored hundreds of DVD-Vs. What you're saying isn't true. It isn't accurate.

This is a forum where people look for the truth about the post industry. You are spreading misinformation because you don't understand the spec.

Your statement "If PCM is the primary track, a Dolby AC3 track is still mandatory." is not correct. No one is "stalking" you. Correcting your misinformation, yes.

[Killahurts]

Originally Posted by kk@jamsync.com

I suggest you check Jim Taylor's excellent "DVD Demystified" if you wish to learn about the facts. Also his "dvdfaq" at dvddemystified.com is a very useful resource.

Thanks KK, I'll look into that one!

TVpostsound, nobody's stalking you here, we're just trying to get things right, it's complicated stuff.

No worries my friend, respect.

[Fredo]

I'm with KK on this one.
I just authored a DVD with a PCM signal on the "main" audio track and a DTS stream on the second. Works perfectly.


Fredo
Temple Of Tune
Belgium

[neilwilkes]

Originally Posted by TVPostSound

If PCM is the primary track, a Dolby AC3 track is still mandatory.
If an AC3 track is primary, as in 2.0 Lo/Ro AC3 encoded, then PCM is not required, and
DTS MAY be used as the SOLE surround track.

Wrong.
Sorry to be so blunt, but you are emphatically wrong.
If this were the case, then I can assure you that the replication plant used for most of our commercial titles (specifically Sony DADC) would reject the DLT tapes if the discs were not to spec.
The specs state the following:
Stream #1 must be one of the 2 mandatory audio streams, LPCM or AC3.
That is all she wrote.
If I have LPCM as Audio #1, then I do *not* need AC3 anywhere on the disc, and anyone who says I do is simply wrong.

Originally Posted by TVPostSound

I quoted the ITU recommendation.

And that is all it is - a recommendation from the ITU. The DVD Forum write the specs, not the ITU.
In exactly the same way, the RPGA write downmix recommendations - not downmix specifications.