Question about sound design for commercials

[mark007]

A beginner level question here for all you guys who actually work in this type of business: I know that everything depends on circumstances (client’s personality and involvement etc etc) but on average how many “MAN HOURS” would a 30 second commercial spot require in total to produce from scratch?

In other words, in a hypothetical situation where 1 single person would do the whole thing from scratch: writing of the text, recording the VO, doing the sound design itself i.e. adding SFX and/or musical elements, mixing. How many hours in total, on average, a .30 spot should take to make?

Ps:

Rates? If anyone cares to answer this part of the question, suppose you were an independent (as in self-employed, with your private studio) producer/sound person working on a project like that and, hypothetically speaking, you only had to produce one such 30 second spot for a local (not national broadcast) FM radio station, lets say a medium-to-relatively large market. Again, I know there could be some extreme price ranges here depending on market, experience of the producer, client’s budget etc. but on average what would be the $amount one could charge for a complete project like that (30 sec, writing, providing and recording VO, sound design and mixing)?

[Kuba_Pietrzak]

I've never seen a situation, where a person, who is responsible for sound would write a text for commercial - it is an ad agency's or client's job... A mixer is expected to judge, if the text can fit the picture (for Tv) or not...
As for "man -hours" it varies from 2 hours to even 3 days... it is ALWAYS project-depended issue...
Best studios in London charge up to 250 pounds per hour...

regards,
Kuba

[mbvoxx]

I can offer this, from my position as exec producer at a Dallas ad agency with in house Avid and Pro Tools HD. We have 4 divisions within our creative department that work together to create :30 sec TV spots.
The copy writers work with the account reps to write the copy. Their time is not included in the production budgeting. Once copy is client approved the production teams go to work: First sequence is audio.
The audio suite records the VO and produces a mixed track with either custom music or library music. We hold on SFX until the sweetening phase so our SFX are matched to graphics. Our budget time for audio production is 1 hour. The audio mix, once approved by the AE and copywriter, is then sent to the art director who is building the graphics and the Avid editor, who is pulling footage and working on a rough video edit. The art director creates the graphics using After Effects, Photoshop and Illustrator. Budgeted time on graphics is 8 hours. The Avid editor imports audio mix and edits his footage to that mix. Graphics is also being built to annimate to the audio mix so that the graphics coordinate with hits and highlights in the music and copy. Then, once graphics are rendered, Avid imports the finished graphics into his session and generates a semi final edit that awaits sweetening. Budgeted time on Avid editing is 4 hours. Once Avid has all the elements assembled and tweaked he shoots the edit back to audio, where it is imported into Pro Tools HD and sweetened - to the frame - with SFX and necessary sound design. Budgeted time on audio sweetening is 1 hour. On average, for that one :30 spot, Total time per spot with all departments accounted for is, on average, 14 hours, not including copy writing.

[Jesse Peterson]

I've also never heard of one person doing all of that.. I do the sound and music editing and deliver versions to the client/agency... Often I'm working with a temp VO that was done by a video editor. Once approved I deliver stems to the mix. Usually that is where they record the VO and wrap it up.

On my end, it takes from a couple hours to a couple days.

[tate]

This question is very broad. TV commercials run the gamut from cable spots, local spots, regional spots & national spots. The budgets and the number of people involved in the process increase also in the same respective order. There is really no definitive answer. I have worked on national spots that have taken as little as 2 hours. Usually a simple spot, vo, music and maybe an on camera, and 1 hour of that would be recording the voice talent. Sometimes more than an hour for vo record if there are versions or if the voice talent isn't delivering, or if the producer doesn't know what they want from the voice talent and wears them out reading the same copy over and over.

But when it comes to high profile national spots where the producer has lots of graphics or visual effects that need audio, the time spent is only limited by the budget. Bear in mind that if it's high profile there can be lots of people there for the final mix and lots of opinions, the dreaded "production by committee". Creative director, Sales weasels, the client (of course), the head of the Agency, and the list goes on.
On the plus side for the studio however, the meter is running while they're making up there mind.

[mark007]

thanks for the info guys... i would like to point out that in my post I did mention radio, not TV so no visuals involved

I guess another way of asking the questions I asked in my original post would be looking at it from the "opposite side". Suppose I were a client and wanted to run a series of the same 30 sec spot on the local FM RADIO station but wanted to have a spot a little more creative than the one that usually radio stations offer for free if you purchase a certain amount of advertising. Lets say I gave that assignment to and "average" ad agency, 1) roughly how many hours would they have to spend on it to make it and 2) how much would I have to expect to pay "on average" for producing the whole thing from A to Z: writing, providing and recording VO, sound design, mixing. etc. (Again I know rates vary a great deal depending on many factors, but I'm talking "an average" here).

[mbvoxx]

Tate makes a good point. For my applications we produce local and regional spots with provided footage that's already digitized so all the elements are in house and ready to edit. And the cluster factor increases with the number of people in the room and their pecking orders on the project totem pole. If we can work alone, even as a team, and do the jobs they hired us to do we get it done a lot faster! But when the guy who's name is on the front of the building comes into the studio to add his 2 cents worth you can bet the time factor just doubled. We call him the Seagull...he comes in, shits all over everything and leaves.

[soundfx]

Hmmm, such a broad question. I wouldn't know hw to answer. A guess would be 1K to 2K minimum for the whole production process. TV much more of course. Don't really work in radio though. I did some basic mixing for a freelance :60 radio spot a few weeks ago. Took all of 2 hours and charged $500 for the mix. The question of rates is one that depends on sooooo many factors that it is quite difficult to answer within anything but a very broad range. Sorry to be of little help.

[mbvoxx]

so at $500 for two hours you're charging the client $250 per studio hour?
glad you can get that. It's more than twice the average digital studio rate.

[nathand]

Originally Posted by mbvoxx

so at $500 for two hours you're charging the client $250 per studio hour?
glad you can get that. It's more than twice the average digital studio rate.

Assuming we're still talking about commercials...

In LA, $125 an hour for a studio with a Mixer/Engineer would be extremely low.

[mbvoxx]

Everything in LA is overpriced. That's a world all to it's own. Only there will you find 12 hundred square foot homes for $800 grand. Outside LA (and NYC) $125 an hour is about average for studio time, with engineer. Studios that charge more than don't stay in business very long.

[nathand]

Originally Posted by mbvoxx

Everything in LA is overpriced.

Perhaps you're right. Or not. Some might say that value is determined by what someone is willing to pay. (Not me mind you, but someone might say that.)

More importantly, if you're only getting $125 an hour, how much does a Mixer outside of LA/NYC make. Can't be much more than 40k. Does that sound about right?

[soundfx]

I thought $250/hr was fairly standard for larger markets. But I'm talking post studio prices, not music.

[smurfyou]

Rates are relative, LA is going to seem outrageous if you're in another market. Its hard to compare dollar amounts. $125/hr non-sync sounds about right here.

[JimmySX]

In Amsterdam rates will start at about 250 euro's per hour including a mixengineer and rent of the studio. Welcome in advertisingworld guys! Norhing strange about that. Even try to rent a videosuite here, depending on the machine you require, the rent of a smoke-room can go up to 900 euro's per hour just to remove a title and insert a new one

And to answer the question the TS asked, it's common for smaller productioncompanies, to write, voice-over and mix the commercial. Mostly for local radio-stations or midlevel radiostations. Clients will mail some keywords and then the producer/engineer/sounddesigner will write a text, then book a voice-over who will come over, or just record the text at home and then mail it, then a librarymusic will be choosen which will suite the tone of the commercial and then the 2 will be mixed together and voila! Even de Soundfx will be charged extra if necessary!
A friend of mine runs a company like this here, so I'm not making this up!

More and more companies will skip the advertising company and go directly to the productioncompany to save out money. I think that will be the new thing in commercial-country!

Just my 2 cents!

[henry2580]

I work at an in house studio at an ad agency and I charge $300 an hour.That's still lower than alot of studios.I'm in Los Angeles.

[danno812]

Your questions depend on too many factors to answer with any real certainty.

The biggest factor being the abilities of the person(s) performing each duty. A good writer can probably knock out a creative script in minutes...but it is dependent upon whether the client will like the concept and approve it. A good talent can read a :30 (well-written) script once or twice and nail it. A not-so-good talent will take longer both reading and with additional editing. A good engineer can record, edit and mix a :30 radio spot in an hour or less. But if there are music changes and multiple sound effects then it can take several hours. All of this will ultimately depend on the client who can love it and approve everything or hate it and send it back at any stage prior to delivery.

I'm sure this isn't the answer you are hoping for...but it is what it is.

Dan

Voice Talent :: ProComm Studio Services - Voice overs with male & female voice talent

[ripple_fx1]

wearing all hats, eh? I'd go nuts from the constant phone and e-mail.
on average? one day. quote a daily rate and bill for actual time used if it's 4 hours or less. minus talent fee, minus music, how much do you need to make per day to smile thru the pain. you're making widgets, but some of the ingredients are creative - so charge accordingly.

[Jussi]

Also there might well be different versions: 10 sec, 20, 30, 60, 90... and different specs for different networks and cinema. VO, sfx or takes might be different depending on the version and so on. And transfer takes time too, specially if you have to lay back to tape. These can easily take longer than expected.

[sonnykeyes]

Like henry2580, I also run the in-house audio dept. at an ad agency, and we charge $350/hour plus incidentals for SFX, stock music, voice direction etc. Including casting, sound design, voice direction and music (which could be stock or original) the budget could vary anywhere from $1100 to $10,000+ depending on the demands of the script. The agency also charges the client separately for the scriptwriting and client services, so for a big-time major client to launch a new radio campaign could be tens of thousands, while cranking out a new iteration of an existing 'announcer-only' campaign for a smaller, perhaps local client might only set them back $3-4K.

Subtract out the client services and other salaries that wouldn't apply to the kind of client who just wants a notch above station-produced spots, and you're looking at maybe $1500-$2500 depending on how involved your script is. Hope that helps.

Sonny Keyes
Ricochet Audio
Toronto

[breaktheory]

I've worked on some fairly major ads - Nike, Coca Cola, Gatorade, PS3, Army, Navy, Pennzoil and a few less prodigious projects. I'm actually moving out of the commercial business as it's becoming less and less profitable for a freelancer.

As far as rates, I was a contractor at a number of sound design houses so I was paid a weekly retainer and the house charged generally charged by the project, not the hour.

In my experience, I've never had a project come in that didn't have either a very short period of time to work (anything from a week or two to literally a spot that comes in at 6pm on a Friday with a Monday morning delivery date)

The answer is that you work as well as you can in the time you have to do it.

I've never once finished a project then gone back a week later with at least one or two bits that I could've improved upon but that's how you learn! just don't repeat a mistake twice!

[tribeofenki]

I know a composer who did the sound of a 20 seconds spot for MTV Italy. Done in one day - after some sessions with the guy who contacted him. The pay was 'round 2.000 EUR

I thing it is just too much, but bear in mind that there are some jingles that are aired alot...

[BeK$]

I work at a post audio studio in NYC, I also do all the billing. Rates have definitely gone up in the past couple years but not too much considering and we charge for everything from saving a session to cd's that are made, etc etc. You have to look at couple things... DigiBeta's are still pretty expensive and to have one or two to layback to is great for a client. One less step and pretty much essential if you are in the business. Nowadays everyone has a D5 for HD and 5.1 here in NYC and in Cali they all like the Sony HDCamSR. These are $100k machines. DigiBetas are still not cheap either. Tape stock alone isnt cheap. To have a D5 running you also do not just need to have the machine and plug in a few cords and walla ! Its much more intensive than that. The reason you are charged x amount of dollars is due to overhead and rent. Granted you are talking about radio spots but even owning sound effects libraries and having the storage space for them isnt cheap although I dont have a price on that. There are tons of great stock music companies that can help you out and are more than willing to provide their search services to you so you can forward their picks from their libraries to your clients so you can list that as another service for them. Licensing is another fun thing to bill for but most music companies keep it cheap. Just double check with them before they are charging you $20k for a song. Also the biggest thing is this, the Ad agency HAS the money believe me. What their business expenses are when they go to Cali for a shoot is a lot more than what you will ever charge them in some instances which boggles my mind when they always need a deal and give themselves a crazy deadline that ends up having what they are working on rushed out the door. Your voice over that the agency may have picked is also getting paid more money than you and they may be there for an hour at the most. This is why the rates are what they are and they are and audio is also the least expensive per hour when compared to Video Post and Smoke and Flame machine online time. Im at work and there is more to it and I know Im leaving out variables and wanting to have work come in when your new to the game and do not have a client base already there. I also didnt proof read this as Im at work and just realized how much I just typed !

[BeK$]

I just hurt my brain reading what I wrote !

[tribeofenki]

'ndeed, you can change the fonts while posting.