What College?

[Hoofer]

To start off i've been lurking the forums for a while and I love this website...

But anyway something I'm having trouble finding is a school that focus's on post for film/broadcast as much as it does for music recording. I still have time until I need to make up my mind because I'm a junior in high school but if anyone had any suggestions as to what school has at least a good portion of their curriculum dedicated to post, specifically film sound, it would help me out a great deal. Around here all the hype is in pop/rock recording .

Thanks
hoofer

[gsilbers]

well, most people start audio post cause they cant make it in music or dont like it. but thats my imo. most if not all audio schools will teach both music and post. places like berklee you learn music get a bachelor and take a few post classes but at a steep price.
at least if you dont end up doing post you have a bachelors you can use for anything else. youll have to take english/history etc etc like any college.
just a tip though.

[danijel]

Just to be sure - are you looking for a school that focuses on BOTH post AND music, or would just post suffice?

[Hoofer]

well, I was under the impression that EVERY school was gonna have music somewhere in the curriculum. I mean if the school is completely film I'd still be very interested in looking into it. Literally any suggestions would be great.

Thanks a lot!

[danijel]

OK, so I heard a couple of times Full Sale being mentioned.
Check these (if you haven't):
Is it worth going to a recording school for sound design/post?
Good school to study post production
Audio Recording Technical Institute

Many people suggest not going to school for post at all, and I can confirm that I actually started learning when I got OUT of the school - school actually burdens you with all kinds of additional classes that are not strictly sound-related (well, university type schools at least).

But I'm so glad that I went there, because I've learned all the additional stuff about film-making (directing, editing, acting, organization) that are actually very useful when you talk to a director or a producer, and don't want to make a fool of yourself, or want them to take you seriously. Only when you're on their level in THEIR field, will they respect you.
Not that you can't learn all that stuff for yourself, either.

It's also useful for networking.

[dr.sound]

This is a great place for you to study:
Savannah College of Art and Design Sound Design Gallery

Excellent Teachers

[Jesse Peterson]

School gave me a false sense of knowing what I'm talking about and habits that ultimately needed to go. Plus a loan that I'm still paying off..

My real education began with internships, 5min conversations while smoking cigarettes outside the facility, and getting in over my head and having to find my way out.

[Hoofer]

awesome, this has all been a big help. Now my second question. I'm already in the new york city area, where should I start looking for an internship. I've worked under some some recording engineers, but none of the ones I am in contact with deal with film/broadcast etc. Are the television networks usually looking for interns or is it a rare opportunity?

[Lipflap]

I trained on the job, as a film editor and later as a sound editor, and I feel that learning from more experienced pros is the best way to master any craft. However, now that I teach my trade at a college, I am at times envious my students who are receiving a better general sound education than I did at their age. True, the craft must be learned by doing - with guidance, but a certain amount of classroom teaching can be helpful.

[soundboy]

The way to learn post is through the old apprentice route. Get an assistant job, be smart, attentive, and not to intrusive, and you'll move up. That said, I highly recommend the college experience. It broadens your outlook and exposes you to a lot of different ideas and creative groups. Get an english degree, or any kind of BA. Don't think about college like a trade school. It's much more than that. The post industry will still be there when you get out, and you will be a richer person for the experience.
I have a BA in Theater.

[danijel]

Originally Posted by Lipflap

I trained on the job, as a film editor and later as a sound editor, and I feel that learning from more experienced pros is the best way to master any craft. However, now that I teach my trade at a college, I am at times envious my students who are receiving a better general sound education than I did at their age. True, the craft must be learned by doing - with guidance, but a certain amount of classroom teaching can be helpful.

John, I just found this video of you teaching:
YouTube - Sound Post Production lesson

It's exciting to see you in motion!

So, are all lectures at Sapir College in English, or is it just you?
I'm wondering if foreign students can enroll, and is higher education free in your country?

-----------------------------------

A question for the German-speaking folks:

I know that Germany and Austria have great education systems, and they're free for everyone, so a lot of folks from poorer countries (like mine) come to study over there (I know many people who studied music in Graz). So, I wonder if it's the same with film schools that have sound departments? Are they state-owned (ie not private), meaning free?

[Lipflap]

Originally Posted by danijel

So, are all lectures at Sapir College in English, or is it just you?
I'm wondering if foreign students can enroll, and is higher education free in your country?

Sapir is a Hebrew-language college. My Hebrew is sufficiently retarded that it would be silly to lecture in that language. Israel has a very high English language penetration, especially among the young people, so it's not surprising that I can pull off my class in English. I guess it's open to foreigners, but the Hebrew would be a problem except in my class.
Higher education in Israel is relatively cheap, but not free.

[Andrew Mottl]

Originally Posted by danijel

A question for the German-speaking folks:

I know that Germany and Austria have great education systems, and they're free for everyone, so a lot of folks from poorer countries (like mine) come to study over there (I know many people who studied music in Graz). So, I wonder if it's the same with film schools that have sound departments? Are they state-owned (ie not private), meaning free?

Heyho,
I study here in Germany, at the IMM ( Institut für Musik und Medien: INSTITUT )
It is a state school, "free" although we do pay a fewhundred euros to the music academy every half year, but that is the new system here in Germany... so still more or less the "most free" you can get.
And yes, there are many things we learn that one probably won't ever need, or that don't go into detail enough, and many things one should learn. BUT there is a lot of basic stuff, important stuff that is taught, and the possibilities of working on projects is the thing that really gets you forward. Working on films for other film schools (they regulary take sound folks from our school), having studios, mics, cameras etc. available, working in teams with colleagues, be it them playing instruments, or assisting, or simply working on their projects is so great - being in positions you will never end up in when being an intern or assistant at a studio to start out. AND you spend a few years training your ears and gaining experience without really risking a lot (unlike out in the real world). Just one opinion though. I'm sure there are many people that get on very well or even better at times without a uni/school. It's what YOU make out of the posibilities given to you.
Oh and yes, music involved. Helps a lot in terms of "designing" audio over time (creative process), and trains your ear.

Just my humble two cents.

As for you question Danijel: Most are state owned, but I know of big film schools here that are independent (indeed working out in the market), but still "free" for students.

[aleatoric]

Vancouver Film School has a "Sound Design for Visual Media" program. I went there. There is VERY little focus on music. Its all about audio post, you learn a ton. It covers all elements of the audio process for film in great depth. Also some cool courses on video game sound, synthesis, acoustics, etc. Its a lot of fun and Vancouver is beautiful. You spend a ton of time on Pro-Tools and come out an editing machine. Like any school though the more you put in the more you get out. The only down side I would say is there is not much of an audio post industry in Vancouver so you will eventually have to move to find work. One thing to consider is to study where you plan on living (probably LA or NYC) that way you have time to make some contacts to hopefully land something when you walk out. I left VFS and headed to NYC and despite knowing a lot about audio post it all boils down to connections which took me years to make (and still working on it). Some of my friends who went to NYU for film opened a studio and got a fair share of work from first time film makers in there program as well as people they knew, etc. So that is something to consider. As far as the program at VFS though I can not recommend it enough if you really want to just learn about audio post and not music.

[danijel]

John, Andrew,
thank you for the answers. I'm so glad socialism still works in some places. For how much longer, we will see. I just hope it holds until my kids are 20 :) --- I've enrolled them to an elementary school where German language is taught since third grade.... maybe because of my dream that never came true - to study jazz in Graz :)

[alyricalmind]

Have heard great things about Full Sail. Nice location as well.

[jacobfarron]

Full Sail is entirely too expensive. I went to the Audio Recording Technology Institute - much better and more affordable.

That being said, any college is better than no college. It's nearly impossible to get a foot in the door at a post house or recording studio with or without a degree.

[BVoss]

Originally Posted by alyricalmind

Have heard great things about Full Sail. Nice location as well.

I went to full sail and loved everything about it. I hear the cost of education is quite high these days, however. I believe I paid $27,700 for the 12 months back in 2002.

[soundboy]

Originally Posted by jacobfarron

Full Sail is entirely too expensive. I went to the Audio Recording Technology Institute - much better and more affordable.

That being said, any college is better than no college. It's nearly impossible to get a foot in the door at a post house or recording studio with or without a degree.

Things must have changed since I started. No one ever asked about my college or degree.

[charles maynes]

If you want an Oscar.... there is but one choice- USC school of Film. Accept no substitutes.

it is expensive btw.... but the connections in the film industry are like the the political connections you would have from being in Skull and Bones.

[kk@jamsync.com]

Originally Posted by charles maynes

If you want an Oscar.... there is but one choice- USC school of Film. Accept no substitutes.

it is expensive btw.... but the connections in the film industry are like the the political connections you would have from being in Skull and Bones.

Except that they rejected Spielberg three times...

[philper]

This may be a red herring in this discussion, but I would strongly recommend that a young person do a regular BA undergraduate degree, if possible, and then consider how to get into the business. It seems to me that people's minds and experience are still very provincial after high school, and that college opens up a much wider world of knowledge and experience that will inform all parts of the young person's life and work, regardless of what it ends up being. It also provides one with a diploma that means something in the wider world. I've always had a hard time digesting specific technical knowledge without practical experience (and the adrenaline chaser of a real job) to make it stick. Brilliant people will mostly always succeed, but average folks I've met who have come from these for-profit technical programs seem to have trouble framing their knowledge in ways that help them solve real problems in real time, until they build up some experience.

Philip Perkins

[havlowjumper]

I would like to echo Philper's sentiments.

Not only is a liberal arts degree useful in developing depth of thought in your chosen area of employment, perhaps more importantly it broadens general knowledge, all the while developing your skills as a learner.

In a constantly evolving and developing field like audio-post, knowing how to find answers, how to read effectively, and how to communicate your ideas with clarity seem to me to be very important skills. College is not the only way to acquire these skills, but it has proven to be a very effective one. Many colleges (public and private) are now offering Recording Arts degree programs, which would give you a major in your field of choice, an instantaneous network system (and hopefully robust career services department), while still requiring you to have some breadth to your education.

Furthermore, while I was in college I found plenty of time for any number of extra-curricular activities, not the least of which was interning part-time at a recording studio. Oh and partying. That too.

my 2 cents,
-Abe

[Hoofer]

thanks a whole lot folks. This has all been more helpful than you can imagine. Is it really that tough to get an internship though?

[charles maynes]

Originally Posted by kk@jamsync.com

Except that they rejected Spielberg three times...

well I guess you could ask...


Walter Murch
Ben Burtt
Gary Rydstrom
Steve Flick


and all of these folks....

USC Cinema - Alumni » Notable Alumni

[JoeMilner]

As always, there are exceptions, Dane Davis comes immediately to mind as an Oscar winner who didn't go to USC, or George Watters who's won 2.

Can you tell I'm a UCLA supporter?

[charles maynes]

Originally Posted by JoeMilner

As always, there are exceptions, Dane Davis comes immediately to mind as an Oscar winner who didn't go to USC, or George Watters who's won 2.

Can you tell I'm a UCLA supporter?

I don't know about that, but can't you tell I didn't finish my Bachelors Degree?......


I think USC has about a million sound Oscars though- Murch has around 5 I think, and Gary has 11 or 13....

Flick has two also....

[JoeMilner]

I just wouldn't want hoofer to think that in order to succeed in motion picture sound that attending USC is a necessity. It also may be the most expensive way to prepare for an unpaid internship there is!

Myself, I didn't attend college for post-sound OR for music engineering. I started with a Tascam PortaStudio 4-track cassette, and kept building up my gear while working as an auto mechanic (thank you, Seattle Mechanic's School), and was eventually working as a recording engineer & producer when, in a total fluke, in '94 I got a call to edit a book-on-tape at Soundelux. I had no idea what went into sound for movies, but once I entered that world I never looked back.

Anyway, that's how I got my audio education, and it worked for me.

One bit of advice though, I would say that where you GET your education is not nearly as important as how you present it when you land your first position, be it intern, assistant, whatever. Sound supervisors don't want to deal with somebody fresh out of school who thinks they already know how to do everything. Get the job, watch and listen, and be ready to learn more in the 1st week "in the trenches" than you did in the previous 2 years!

best of luck hoofer,


Joe

[charles maynes]

Originally Posted by JoeMilner

I just wouldn't want hoofer to think that in order to succeed in motion picture sound that attending USC is a necessity. It also may be the most expensive way to prepare for an unpaid internship there is!

Myself, I didn't attend college for post-sound OR for music engineering. I started with a Tascam PortaStudio 4-track cassette, and kept building up my gear while working as an auto mechanic (thank you, Seattle Mechanic's School), and was eventually working as a recording engineer & producer when, in a total fluke, in '94 I got a call to edit a book-on-tape at Soundelux. I had no idea what went into sound for movies, but once I entered that world I never looked back.

Anyway, that's how I got my audio education, and it worked for me.

One bit of advice t