Foley mics...

[Boussani]

Hi...
And again, another question from a beginner...
I searched the forum and couldn't find a thread on that.

I was wondering what would make a good "general use" Foley mic...
Obviously, different sounds would sound better with different mics... But for the "everyday" Foley session, is there some kind of a thumb-rule regarding what kind of characteristics a mic would need to do good Foleys??

When I say- "everyday" Foley sessions, I mean common stuff like footsteps, doors, vegetable abuse and such...



Thanks!
Shachar

[Stephen Muir]

The mics you choose for foley will also depend on the size of your foley stage and the accoustic treatment thereof.

For most of the foley I record, I'm using a Sennheiser MKH416 as the primary mic, with either a second `416 or a Neumann TLM103 as a perspective mic.

For particularly loud and sharp sounds (eg. breaking glass, clapping) the `416 can be a bit harsh, so I'll switch to a Neumann TLM170 (typically set to hypercardioid). The TLM170 also works quite well for sounds that will be over-sampled at 192kHz and pitched downward.

For some loud and bass-heavy cues (eg. heavy bodyfalls, closeup horses) I occasionally add an AKG D112 to supplement the bottom-end of the `416. A Shure SM-58 is also handy to have around, although we rarely use it except for when the film calls for podium mic handling. Those two dynamic mics are also handy for recording sweeteners for rocket blast-offs, and are hardy enough to be used as "stunt mics".

Aside from those mics, I occasionally use more specialized transducers such as a C-Ducer contact pickup or a DPA 4011 hydrophone.

[santacore]

Stephen's advice is right on the money. I would add that the Neumann KMR81 shotgun is also a very popular choice as a primary mic.

Check out this thread for more info:
Good Mic for foley recording?

[BVoss]

Originally Posted by santacore

Stephen's advice is right on the money. I would add that the Neumann KMR81 shotgun is also a very popular choice as a primary mic.

Check out this thread for more info:
Good Mic for foley recording?

+1 to the kmr81

[Boussani]

So it's mostly shotguns.....
Ok, cool...

Now, what about some lower budget mics?
Considering I wont be doing any really high budget Hollywood films anytime soon... And I can settle on sound not as good.
What would make a good low-in-price mic? Any flat unidirectional condenser? Basically, the best I can get..?
What I'm asking- Is this what I should aim for?

(And large dynamic mics for bottom end...?)


Thanks!!

[santacore]

So it's mostly shotguns.....
Ok, cool...

Yes, most stages in Los Angeles use shotguns. Personally I've drifted away from using them as my primary. I prefer the diffuse sound of condensers for most stuff. That said, I usually keep a shotgun up for really quiet stuff or things I really want in your face. For a mid priced condenser check out the Neumann TLM103. I haven't used it, but it seems to be a popular choice. You might want to look into companies like Blue Microphones, Red Microphones, Violet Designs, or Rode. Each of these companies make low noise condensers that will work for Foley. For a ultra low budget mic I recommend the Rode NT1A. For $200 it's extremely quiet, sounds decent, and is light weight so it can be moved around easily on the stage.

Boussanim, these are some suggestions to get you started. From there have fun and experiment with different mic techniques.

[b808]

Originally Posted by Stephen Muir

For most of the foley I record, I'm using a Sennheiser MKH416 as the primary mic, with either a second `416 or a Neumann TLM103 as a perspective mic.

I second the 416.

What about the KM series from Neuman, Have you tried these?

[philper]

The Neumann TLM 103 is a good choice because it has one of lowest self-noise levels of any mic available--much quieter than a U87 or a 416 etc.. The shotgun style mics are good for mid-to-upper Hz sounds where you are trying to control any room reflections, either because the room isn't well treated or the sounds are very quiet (or both). For sounds with a lot of low-end content I'd go with a traditional hypercard (TLM 170, Schoeps MK41 etc) if you can get one.

Philip Perkins

[Takeshi]

Hi,

I've used many microphones and I personally prefer a shotgun (usually Sennheiser MKH 416, but would love to have a Neumann KMR 81 at my stage!). Not only because of the low noise and the polar pattern "benefits", but also for its "disadvantages". I find the artists often make a very good use of its off axis coloured response to create greater perspective and motion for example. Its particular freq response helps to better match production (and ADR as well) when it's needed. So another vote for shotguns here. I've used Neumann TLM 103 as well and as Philip stated before, it's been very good due to its very low noise and don't know how else to describe its "in your face, kind of hard sound". I find curious that I like better Sennheiser 416, and TLM 103 for Foley than Schoeps MK 41, that I love for production sound.
Talking about lower priced mics I would give Rode NTG-1 or NTG-2 a try. Maybe Sennheiser K6 ME66 as well.

cheers,

TK.

[Boussani]

Cool...
Thank you all!

Those Rodes are pretty cheep... I didn't know they even make shotguns that cheep..
Are they any good? Do they worth it?
I guess I could go about $100-$200 higher if there's something up there that might be much better.

As far as frequency response... Are there any specific characteristics I should be looking for, or should I just go flat?


Would any of you consider a large dynamic as a Foley mic?
I've been told that something like a Heil PR-40 could be good for Foleys... It has a lot of presence, kinda brings out some stuff without needing a high volume.
Theoretically, it makes some sense to me... What do you guys think?
Any other dynamic mics that might be considered? How about something like the ElectroVoice RE20?

I was recently introduced to these mics-
http://www.naiant.com/xmspecification.html
Never heard them, but people say that they are WAY better than some mics double the price...
And these are cheep as hell! ($70 for this specific one)
Does anyone have experience with one of these?
What I think might be the problem with these is that they're omnidirectional... And from what I understand here, I don't want that, right?


Thanks, again!
Shachar

[jayfrigo]

Sen. 416 is the classic, and for ADR too. The reason a shotgun is often used is not because everybody loves the sound so much, but more for matching into production audio. Of course there are always other choices available as well to cover varying needs.

These mics or similar (416, 816, the Neumann, and Schoeps too) are being used on set during production, so using them in post means the sounds will match in much easier and you (or your mixer) will spend less time trying process the square peg to fit in the round hole. Less work, better mix... what's to complain about?

[Boussani]

Originally Posted by jayfrigo

Less work, better mix... what's to complain about?

I'm not complaining, my pocket is...
;)
(At least for the MKH 416)

[mikevarela]

shotguns just work due to the hyper-cardioid pickup, lots of cancellation on the side and back.

I've also read some amazing things about the earthworks series, especially the pencils

[starcrash13]

I got a 416 on eBay for $500 USD. That was a lucky one, though. They usually go for between $6-900. I would definitely recommend a used 416 or KMR81i over a new ME66 or other "prosumer" mic.

In any case, mic placement, distance, and room characteristics will make much more of a noticeable difference than any microphone. Most rookie Foley suffers from sounding too close and clean. I've heard amazing results with a studio that uses two KMR81i's, one close and the other distant and facing away from the subject (all off-axis). The Foley mixer mixes the two mics in real time to get realistic perspective to match the action on screen.

Another thing to consider is the importance of a preamp that gives you a lot of gain without noise or discoloration. I'll take a Røde NT-1A through a high quality preamp over a Klaus-modded U87 through an M-Audio preamp (or the like).

[subbasshead]

This is of course subjective but we used a 416 for foley since I started in film sound a decade or two ago.. a few years back a freelance foley artist brought in his own Neumann KMR81 and when we predubbed the foley for that film the mixers found the foley matched production audio much more easily... I dont record foley but the foley studio we use bought one & I tracked down a second hand KMR81 for FX recording and havent used the 416 since... its just my opinion but I would definitely recomend the KMR81 over the 416...

[tsvisser]

Originally Posted by philper

The Neumann TLM 103 is a good choice because it has one of lowest self-noise levels of any mic available--much quieter than a U87 or a 416 etc..

I was really curious about this statement... are there any other mics that best a TLM103 at output level vs noise floor?

Using the same mic that was used on location is 1 very good reason to use (in most instances) a Senn 416, if you have to make sounds integrate with each other. All other things equal, however, shotguns have very tight tolerances with respect to angle, due to their pickup pattern and implementation of the interference tube, and if you stray slightly off axis of the primary sound source, very drastic tonal changes will occur. I'd generally use a hypercardioid or maybe even a cardioid or omni assuming that you are in a decent room and don't have to combat things like environmental or wind noises, the primary reasons to grab a shotgun in the first place.

[cjguitar]

Originally Posted by Boussani

I was recently introduced to these mics-
Naiant Studio
Never heard them, but people say that they are WAY better than some mics double the price...
And these are cheep as hell! ($70 for this specific one)
Does anyone have experience with one of these?
What I think might be the problem with these is that they're omnidirectional... And from what I understand here, I don't want that, right?

I'm no expert, but those mics seem to have a relatively high self noise compared to the other mics mentioned, and yeah omni is probably not the best choice for pickup pattern, unless you were using it for a room mic, which would probably not work well do to the high self noise. On the cheap, I'd recommend the Rodes. They have a new shotgun, the NTG-3 which has lower self noise than their other mics (around $700):

RØDE Microphones - NTG-3

I've also had some success with the middle of the road Audio Technica AT4073 ($550-$600):

Audio-Technica - Microphones, headphones, wireless microphone systems, noise-cancelling headphones & more : AT4073a Line + Gradient Condenser Microphone

Good Luck!

Chris M. Jacobson, CAS
The Dub Stage
IMDB

[Boussani]

Thanks, guys...

I see no one commented about recording Foley with a large dynamic...
I'm assuming that a "No"....?
Stephen did write about the AKG D-112 for the low ends... But only in specific occasions... Is that all there is for dynamics in the Foley world?


Thanks, again, you guys have been very helpful!

[santacore]

Chris M. Jacobson, CAS
The Dub Stage
IMDB

Hey Chris, good to see you on the board!

I see no one commented about recording Foley with a large dynamic...
I'm assuming that a "No"....?

Generally I find dynamics are not sensitive enough to be used for anything more then loud sounds or for sweetening other mic's.

The bottom line is that many types of mics are used to achieve different sounds. But, if you're looking for an all around mic for Foley stick with a good shotgun or condenser.

[Takeshi]

I've had the same experience. Usually you need to keep noise floor very low, so there isn't much room for dynamic mics. You may use it for sweetening loud effects, but surely not as your main mic.

cheers,

TK.

[Boussani]

Alright...

I think I pretty much got all my answers...
Thanks you very much!!!
You've all been very helpful...

I'd always like to hear about some more recommendations.
But that's good for now...

Thanks!
Shachar

[shilshoolon]

This is a bit off topic but somehow linked to the subject, so i hope you don't mind my post here.

I've watched a video of a dinosaur footsteps session which were made by foley artists in the studio (Dinosaur animation by Disney). They placed small mics on the ground that look like lavaliers, i think they could be contact mics to get the low rumble of the footsteps but i might be wrong. Does anyone know what sort of mics they used?

Thanks,

Shil

[tsvisser]

DPA makes a stereo kit for its lavalier mics that is a circular rubber disc to convert it to a boundary layer mic. Could it have been that?

[Boussani]

Any opinions about Audio Technica AT815B?
I see one on eBay for $300...
Worth it?

Or maybe AT835B?

Thanks...

Too many options... argh.........

[Stephen Muir]

Originally Posted by Boussani

AT815B

Noisey, strident, thin... generally insensitive.

It's a passable entry-level boom mic for an under-funded film-school, but it'd be a poor choice for foley.

Aside from some of DPA's mics, back-electret condensors tend to far too noisey for most foley applications.

[santacore]

Noisey, strident, thin... generally insensitive.

wow, sounds just like my ex-girlfriend.


Seriously though Boussani, save your coin and buy one good mic once. If not, you're going to be wasting time and money buying and selling mic's only to realize that you should have bought one of the industry standards in the first place. I've been down this path and speak from experience.

[Boussani]

Yeah, I know what you're saying, Santacore... I agree...

It's just not that easy when you don't even have a day job and you live off of savings, and hoping to get a dime from the next post gig... You know..?
I guess that's where we start.

It takes a lot to just say- "F*ck it..."
I wish I could.

But, thanks...
I think I need to hear what you said more often, it might help me choose the "F*ck it..." way.

[Stephen Muir]

If cashflow is as tight as you describe, consider renting the gear. Its more expensive in the long run, but the low short-term overhead is much gentler on the cashflow.

It would also give you an opportunity to audition different mics. As you can see from the above posts, there is no one mic that will be ideal for all situations and all recording styles.

[Bob Olhsson]

The folks I know try to use the very same mike that was used to record the dialog if at all possible.

[JAY D]

Originally Posted by santacore

Stephen's advice is right on the money. I would add that the Neumann KMR81 shotgun is also a very popular choice as a primary mic.

Check out this thread for more info:
Good Mic for foley recording?

Yes. The Neumann KMR 81 is the way to go. I went through this about 3 years ago. I know some Foley artists in the film industry who work week in week out on big budget films. They use A KMR 81. I'm sure they have other mics but when I visit the neumann is usually in use. I actually record foley in my bedroom. I do all my fx and foley recording with it too. I paid ...?..1350$ new. I have tried recording some violin foley with a 414 and it didn't cut it. Very thin. Verrrry thin. The point is that it's texture and 9 out of 1o it's not showcased, but if it sounds thin, then it sounds fake.

Good luck