TV Reference Mixes on DVD?

[nd33]

Hi!
I am wanting to pick up some good reference mixes for tv shows such as Ugly Betty.
I'm wondering if the mixes for DVD are different than the TV mixes? Are things like dialogue more compressed/limited on TV than DVD's generally? What differences are there, if any?

Is it better for me to learn from material taped directly off the TV or from DVD's (which would be better quality sound!).

ps. Any recommendations for shows that have interesting soundtracks?

_

[danijel]

Unfortunately, all the DVDs of TV shows that I picked are remixed for DVD (all 3 CSIs, 24, Prison Break...). Yes, they are very different, not only in dynamics, but all other aspects of mixing as well.
Analyzing TV rip (done after broadcast) makes (almost) no sense as, by that point, the mix has passed different compounders and other processing.
Your best bet is to have a friend who works at a TV station who is willing to (contrary to his contract) copy an episode off of master tape/HDD for you.

[dr.sound]

Originally Posted by danijel

Unfortunately, all the DVDs of TV shows that I picked are remixed for DVD (all 3 CSIs, 24, Prison Break...). Yes, they are very different, not only in dynamics, but all other aspects of mixing as well.
Analyzing TV rip (done after broadcast) makes (almost) no sense as, by that point, the mix has passed different compounders and other processing.
Your best bet is to have a friend who works at a TV station who is willing to (contrary to his contract) copy an episode off of master tape/HDD for you.

This is not true!! They don't remix the shows for DVD. When they do it's to replace music that they can't get the international rights to. RARELY do they remix. It isn't in the budget and they don't have the time. The DVD is a much better reference than a copy of a tape that is sent 20,000 miles up nad then down on a satelite into a compressor that is set on stun at the station!!

[danijel]

Originally Posted by dr.sound

This is not true!! They don't remix the shows for DVD. When they do it's to replace music that they can't get the international rights to. RARELY do they remix. It isn't in the budget and they don't have the time. The DVD is a much better reference than a copy of a tape that is sent 20,000 miles up nad then down on a satelite into a compressor that is set on stun at the station!!

Marti, I just opened a project that I made about 3 years ago (before I mixed my first action show) where I had a certain C.A.S. award winning episode of an action show:
1) ripped off of DVD (5.1),
2) copied directly from the TV station's master (stereo, before compression) and
3) recorded from a cable provider AFTER broadcast (mono).
I can't state which show is this, because I would compromise my source.

The differences between the DVD and TV master were not subtle. Of course, the main difference was in that the TV master was compressed to fit the delivery spec, and it was noticeable mostly on music, and loud SFX.
The second difference that one notices is that the dialog is a few dB louder VS the ambiances (compared to DVD), and the third is that surround FX were downmixed very, very low (compared to standard -3dB downmix for the surrounds).
Average dialog vs peak for DVD was about 22-24dB, while for the TV master it was about 15-16dB.

So, if they didn't do a full remix for DVD (as I previously thought), then it was probably the other way around - they originally mixed for DVD (albeit not using it's full range), and then just did another pass with some downmix tweaking, or maybe the downmix and dynamic compression were done alltogether automatically somewhere else - but the result is noticeably different.

I suppose the HDTV versions are even closer to the DVD mix? Same?
Unfortunately, TV is still SD and MONO in Serbia, so I won't be able to figure that out soon

[Henchman]

AFAIK Marti is correct.
No re-mixing is done for tv shows.
I listened to an episode of The L-word on DVD, and it sounded the same I remember mixing it. Warts and all.

[danijel]

Originally Posted by Henchman

AFAIK Marti is correct.
No re-mixing is done for tv shows.
I listened to an episode of The L-word on DVD, and it sounded the same I remember mixing it. Warts and all.

I guess I jumped to conclusions based on differences I heard on that one show, and the fact that other shows that I mentioned had dialnorm at a low setting. I'll try and re-rent some of those to analyze the actual dynamic range - perhaps the dialnorm is low, but they don't use the top 10dB..... sort of like a typical TV delivery.

Mark, how do you deliver shows that broadcast on a range of different TV stations, each having it's own spec? And do you do the stereo downmix yourself for the shows that you originally do in surround? I'm curious about what processes can a track go through before it hits the TV master. (We only deliver stereo here, and all the TV stations in the surrounding countries have nearly identical spec).

[Henchman]

Originally Posted by danijel

Mark, how do you deliver shows that broadcast on a range of different TV stations, each having it's own spec? And do you do the stereo downmix yourself for the shows that you originally do in surround? I'm curious about what processes can a track go through before it hits the TV master. (We only deliver stereo here, and all the TV stations in the surrounding countries have nearly identical spec).

We don't deliver for different stations.
Usually, it's one deliverable at a certain spec for that client.
Then, they do with it whatever they do.

[swirlyd]

I would like some good references from movie/TV DVDs - in terms of level. If I extract the AC3, convert it to AIF and import to Pro Tools, will that be an accurate representation of the final mix (including where the peaks are?) - or has the overall level (and peak) been altered on its way to the DVD.

For example, I ripped the audio from an episode of CURB YOUR ENTHUSIASM (not because it's an amazing sounding show, it just happened to be lying around) and put on "Inspector" - the dialogue seemed to hover at -18dbFS and the RMS played between 30 & 27. Very rarely did anything go above -14dbFS. That's pretty much the way it should be, right?

[danijel]

Originally Posted by swirlyd

I would like some good references from movie/TV DVDs - in terms of level. If I extract the AC3, convert it to AIF and import to Pro Tools, will that be an accurate representation of the final mix (including where the peaks are?) - or has the overall level (and peak) been altered on its way to the DVD.

It depends on the extraction method. Some methods will apply dialog normalization (and likely reduce volume), some will transfer the AC3 sound to AIFF/WAV at the same level. (How did you rip?)
You can determine that if you play that same DVD on your computer in a software player (with DRC set to off) that is known to apply dialnorm correctly, and compare volume to the extracted files.

Originally Posted by swirlyd

For example, I ripped the audio from an episode of CURB YOUR ENTHUSIASM (not because it's an amazing sounding show, it just happened to be lying around) and put on "Inspector" - the dialogue seemed to hover at -18dbFS and the RMS played between 30 & 27. Very rarely did anything go above -14dbFS. That's pretty much the way it should be, right?

What RMS played between 27 & 30? Dialog or overall? Try and determine RMS ballpark of just dialog, with no music. What do you mean by 'rarely did anything go above -14dbFS' - peak or RMS?

[swirlyd]

Originally Posted by danijel

It depends on the extraction method. Some methods will apply dialog normalization (and likely reduce volume), some will transfer the AC3 sound to AIFF/WAV at the same level. (How did you rip?)

I use Mac The Ripper to get an AC3 file - that can be converted to AIF in Quicktime, then imported into PT.
=========

You can determine that if you play that same DVD on your computer in a software player (with DRC set to off) that is known to apply dialnorm correctly, and compare volume to the extracted files.
What RMS played between 27 & 30? Dialog or overall? Try and determine RMS ballpark of just dialog, with no music. What do you mean by 'rarely did anything go above -14dbFS' - peak or RMS?

Overall RMS was around there (27/30) - everything stayed around or just below -18dbFS (I'm in Europe so am used to -18dbFs as 0, but maybe this show hits -20dbFS being from the States) - the maximum peak was around -14dbFS.
I thought it would be a bit louder with higher peaks (up to -9dBFS or so), but it's not the most dynamic show....

[Henchman]

Originally Posted by swirlyd

Overall RMS was around there (27/30) - everything stayed around or just below -18dbFS (I'm in Europe so am used to -18dbFs as 0, but maybe this show hits -20dbFS being from the States) - the maximum peak was around -14dbFS.
I thought it would be a bit louder with higher peaks (up to -9dBFS or so), but it's not the most dynamic show....

That's correct. The broadcaster probably has a maximum level of peaks at -14. Pretty normal spec.

[doug_hti]

Originally Posted by danijel

Marti, I just opened a project that I made about 3 years ago (before I mixed my first action show) where I had a certain C.A.S. award winning episode of an action show:
1) ripped off of DVD (5.1),
2) copied directly from the TV station's master (stereo, before compression) and
3) recorded from a cable provider AFTER broadcast (mono).
I can't state which show is this, because I would compromise my source.

The differences between the DVD and TV master were not subtle. Of course, the main difference was in that the TV master was compressed to fit the delivery spec, and it was noticeable mostly on music, and loud SFX.
The second difference that one notices is that the dialog is a few dB louder VS the ambiances (compared to DVD), and the third is that surround FX were downmixed very, very low (compared to standard -3dB downmix for the surrounds).
Average dialog vs peak for DVD was about 22-24dB, while for the TV master it was about 15-16dB.

So, if they didn't do a full remix for DVD (as I previously thought), then it was probably the other way around - they originally mixed for DVD (albeit not using it's full range), and then just did another pass with some downmix tweaking, or maybe the downmix and dynamic compression were done alltogether automatically somewhere else - but the result is noticeably different.

I suppose the HDTV versions are even closer to the DVD mix? Same?
Unfortunately, TV is still SD and MONO in Serbia, so I won't be able to figure that out soon

I normally am not allotted any time to make any special/exclusive passes to a downmix (LtRt). The LtRt is made simultaneously with the 5.1 PM. I usually squeeze the peaks a little bit with comp and limiter prior to the encode and may check the overall tone, but you might be surprised at how fast very big shows and features get churned out without spending extra time on different formats. To make the profit margins for the companies, sometimes you risk things on speed and have to rely on your QC to pass along feedback. This speed doesn't mean they are bad mixes in any way, just not the time to "fiddle", 2nd guess, or tweak alt versions.

[soundboy]

If you really think about it, why would anyone do a remix of a TV show for DVD? They are ultimately for the same playback environment, TV. So either way the mix is going to have far less dynamic range than a feature mix, and have its peaks limited for broadcast.

[RecRoom]

Generally they edit the shows down a bit in syndication so they can show more commercials. So, a few of the shows I've worked on have to be remixed because of that, not because of a DVD release.

[danijel]

I just spoke on the phone with a friend who was present (for a couple of minutes) at a DVD remix of one of the Star Track series. The guy who mixed told him that he did incerase the dynamics and tweaked some other stuff, but the primary reason was to get a 5.1 mix, so they don't print the DVDs with original stereo tracks....

[dr.sound]

Originally Posted by danijel

I just spoke on the phone with a friend who was present (for a couple of minutes) at a DVD remix of one of the Star Track series. The guy who mixed told him that he did incerase the dynamics and tweaked some other stuff, but the primary reason was to get a 5.1 mix, so they don't print the DVDs with original stereo tracks....

Danijel,
Who was that and where was it? I know the Lead Re-Recording Mixer who mixed EVERY SINGLE Star Trek series and he didn't remix for DVD on any of them. He mixed hundreds
of the shows starting in 1985 until 3 years or so ago.

[danijel]

Originally Posted by dr.sound

Danijel,
Who was that and where was it? I know the Lead Re-Recording Mixer who mixed EVERY SINGLE Star Trek series and he didn't remix for DVD on any of them. He mixed hundreds
of the shows starting in 1985 until 3 years or so ago.

I'll ask where that was, and if he remembers the name of the mixer (thou I doubt, he was led through dozens of studios in a week).

For now, I checked Amazon, and it turns out ALL the Star Trek series were printed with 5.1 remixes to DVD, including the oldest one:
Amazon.com: Star Trek The Original Series - The Complete First Season: William Shatner, Leonard Nimoy, Deforest Kelly: Movies & TV

However, I find this an exception because it's the classic cult series - both picture and sound were remastered for additional value of this edition.

As many of you pointed out, there is no need to remix the current TV production as it's 5.1 already, and it's going to play through a TV set in most cases anyway.

[dr.sound]

Originally Posted by danijel

I'll ask where that was, and if he remembers the name of the mixer (thou I doubt, he was led through dozens of studios in a week).

For now, I checked Amazon, and it turns out ALL the Star Trek series were printed with 5.1 remixes to DVD, including the oldest one:
Amazon.com: Star Trek The Original Series - The Complete First Season: William Shatner, Leonard Nimoy, Deforest Kelly: Movies & TV

However, I find this an exception because it's the classic cult series - both picture and sound were remastered for additional value of this edition.

As many of you pointed out, there is no need to remix the current TV production as it's 5.1 already, and it's going to play through a TV set in most cases anyway.

Danijel,
I'm not talking the "Original Star Trek series". The newer ones, Deep Space 9 etc were mixed in LT./Rt. not 5.1
There was a place here in Hollywood that remixed (converted) the Lt./Rt to 5.1
That is done on many shows where they weren't mixed in 5.1 originally

[Rick Sanchez]

I've had to replace music for tv shows going to DVD. Unfortunately it's been a fairly common practice over the last few years. The producers/network will license the music for broadcast only and be forced to replace it with sideways cues or on occasion something in no way resembling the original cue for the DVD release.

My method was to set the Dia and FX stems at unity and used the original music stem as an "original intent" reference. Generally this was done without supervision by the show's producers, but they often had final approval before DVD encoding.

If the original re-mixers used processing after the stems, I was not privy to that information. Ideally the stems would include a "mastering info" log, much as music mastering engineers did in days of yore, so that future re-purposes and restorations could be re-created from the "flat" master. Of course with new music, it's a bit moot anyway.

Sad, but true.