Standard mixing levels for movie theater, DVD, broadcast TV, commercials etc
#61
21st March 2010
Old 21st March 2010
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OK Danijel,

thread openthumbsup
#62
21st March 2010
Old 21st March 2010
  #62
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Originally Posted by paulo m View Post
OK Danijel,

thread openthumbsup
Link please.

(Obrigado)
#63
22nd March 2010
Old 22nd March 2010
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#64
16th June 2010
Old 16th June 2010
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Quote:
Originally Posted by danijel View Post
More precisely, the question is: if the spec doesn't give explicit value for average dialog loudness (like Discovery does), but only max. peak and reference/alignment level (like BBC, RTL or any given spec in my region), what do you do with dialog level? Do you just rely on 79dB calibrated monitoring, and mix by ear?
This may have already been covered, but if my memory serves me correctly, the BBC Delivery Spec suggests dialogue levels be between PPM3.5 (-20dbFS) and PPM5 (-14dBFS). Remeber these are peak, not LKFS or Leq-A etc.

For their HD Channel, they give a dialnorm spec of -27 to -24 (or maybe even -22).
danijel
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#65
16th June 2010
Old 16th June 2010
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Originally Posted by tom_lowe View Post
This may have already been covered, but if my memory serves me correctly, the BBC Delivery Spec suggests dialogue levels be between PPM3.5 (-20dbFS) and PPM5 (-14dBFS). Remeber these are peak, not LKFS or Leq-A etc.
Thanks Tom,
I don't remember the BBC spec mentioning dialogue level, but I'll check it when I get the time.... The question you've quoted was a big catch 22 for me at the time - turns out, everyone (ITU, EBU etc) is recommending calibration levels to get the mix levels right, but it doesn't have nothing to do with what's happening out there in the real world (this article describes the "rich tapestry" of broadcast levels in Europe). I suppose "the one calibration to rule them all" was possible in the beginnings of television, when all the production was in-house, and maybe for a bit longer than that, while only reliable external productions were able to get their program aired. Nowadays, it would be more beneficial to make template sessions for Final Cut, Avid and Premiere with low cuts and some compression on dialogue, and a limiter on the output, as most of the audio today is finalized by picture editors.....
#66
30th July 2010
Old 30th July 2010
  #66
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That article has been a great find and caused many minutes of merriment and several facepalms Thank you, Danijel!
#67
6th December 2010
Old 6th December 2010
  #67
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levels

Pozdrav Pitao bih te Danijele ,a znat ces na sto mislim;kad "vozim" program uzivo naizmjenicno muziku i govor(muzika sa koncerta +govor u studiu),muzika je uvijek tiša od govora u finalu.To znaci da nivo muzike i govora ne moze biti ista po instrumentu(din rtw,din German,ebu r68).
pmx
#68
6th December 2010
Old 6th December 2010
  #68
pmx
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Quote:
Hi Daniel, I would ask you, and you will know what I mean, when you "drive" program of live music and alternate speech (music from the concert + speech in the studio), music was always quieter than the speech in finalu.To means that the level of music and speech is not may be the same for the instrument (RTW din, din German, Abu R68).
translation for the rest of us. it may be a question for danijel, but still something we could learn from. that's what a forum's for
danijel
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#69
10th December 2010
Old 10th December 2010
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Originally Posted by cico View Post
Pozdrav Pitao bih te Danijele ,a znat ces na sto mislim;kad "vozim" program uzivo naizmjenicno muziku i govor(muzika sa koncerta +govor u studiu),muzika je uvijek tiša od govora u finalu.To znaci da nivo muzike i govora ne moze biti ista po instrumentu(din rtw,din German,ebu r68).
Quote:
Originally Posted by pmx View Post
translation for the rest of us. it may be a question for danijel, but still something we could learn from. that's what a forum's for
Hey, sorry guys, I was overwhelmed with work these last couple of days.... Cico, I'm not sure if I understood you, I'll write you a PM by week-end.

[Cico, sori, otprilike shvatam sta hoces da kazes, pisacu ti privatnu poruku cim izadjem iz guzve, bas me zanima i sta se radi tamo odakle si.... HR? BiH? CG?]
#70
8th February 2011
Old 8th February 2011
  #70
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Web Levels

Hi, Was just thinking it may be useful to add to this thread and get peoples opinions on optimal levels for online content, as more and more stuff I'm doing seems to be ending up solely on the net. As far as I know there are no standards, but what do people feel are good levels for documentary, music and film. The maxim of 'as loud as possible' isn't necessarily the best for this medium.
Cheers.
danijel
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#71
9th February 2011
Old 9th February 2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adeyboy View Post
Hi, Was just thinking it may be useful to add to this thread and get peoples opinions on optimal levels for online content, as more and more stuff I'm doing seems to be ending up solely on the net. As far as I know there are no standards, but what do people feel are good levels for documentary, music and film. The maxim of 'as loud as possible' isn't necessarily the best for this medium.
Cheers.
There used to be a problem with youtube when you hit it hot - a pumping compression would kick in, but that's a thing of the past now. It seems that youtube (and online video in general) swallows a whole range of different levels and dynamics, and I agree with you that 'as loud as possible' isn't necessary - one practically has to turn the volume knob constantly anyway, so, no direct loudness competition, like in the radio world.
The music videos and the commercials are uploaded in their original 0dBFS peak state, TV-originated material at ~ -23LUFS, etc. The only thing that I find too low for most of the small speakers and laptops are movie-scenes, where dialog is ~ -27 LUFS or lower. You can't crank it up enough. As an example, here are some of the scenes that our distributor uploaded as a teaser for the premiere:
YouTube - TILVA ROŠ CLIP No.2
YouTube - TILVA ROŠ CLIP No.3 (one of the loudest scenes in the movie, BTW)
They are probably a straight mixdown from the theatrical mix, and they are too soft on my laptop. Here's a made-for-web trailer I mixed, in comparison:
TILVA ROŠ OFFICIAL TRAILER

I'll think about adding a little "online video" section to the original post. I wanted to do it before, but I don't know what else to put in there, except, perhaps, as an advice, not to go under -23LUFS for dialogue......?
#72
18th February 2011
Old 18th February 2011
  #72
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Ćao, Danijele! Pozdrav iz Sarajeva!

Za koliko dB-a bi, po tvojoj procjeni, trebalo stišati:"TILVA ROŠ OFFICIAL TRAILER", tako da u kinu, na "85", ne bi bio preglasan?

P.S. Dopada mi se kako argumentuješ stvari "ovima"...
danijel
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#73
19th February 2011
Old 19th February 2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sabovic Adis View Post
Ćao, Danijele! Pozdrav iz Sarajeva!

Za koliko dB-a bi, po tvojoj procjeni, trebalo stišati:"TILVA ROŠ OFFICIAL TRAILER", tako da u kinu, na "85", ne bi bio preglasan?

P.S. Dopada mi se kako argumentuješ stvari "ovima"...
Hi Adis, greetings from Belgrade!
* we have to use English here
so, the question was: how much should one turn down TILVA ROSH trailer that I linked above, so that it would not be too loud in the theater?

The first problem here is - the mix wouldn't be the same - this mix was done on 'crap' speakers - some elements would probably need more dynamics in a theatrical mix (like the swoosh, or the ending music). The second problem is, I've never done a theatrical trailer - there is simply no tradition of theatrical trailers in Serbia, so, based on US trailers that we hear in theaters, and which are typically very loud, I can only guess that, after they are mixed, they are printed as loud as possible, while conforming to the TASA regulation of not exceeding 85 dB Leq(m) (which, in itself is a unit measured by proprietary Dolby algorithm found in Dolby Model 737).
So, the answer is not simple, but once you get to do a trailer mix, the system is simple - you sound design and premix in your studio, you do the final mix at a dub stage where you will find the Dolby Model 737 and you adjust your trailer so that the 737 spits 85 at the end of the pass (it's a measurement with an unlimited integration time, so you get just one number in the end). At least that's how we do commercials (only, the commercials go to 82, not 85). Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

(hvala na komentaru.... pisem ti privatnu poruku kasnije)
#74
19th February 2011
Old 19th February 2011
  #74
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Well then, English!
No Š-s, Đ-s, Č-s, Ć-s, Ž-s...
No ćevapčići, đurđevak...just kiddin'

I know that, after dematrixing, the mix is going to be lower in level, but by how much?
Your estimation? Generaly, I found the DVDs and BRs soundtracks to be way too loud.
Do they get boosted prior to mastering or is DD actualy a floating type of "Digital"?
Got some DD samples they do go "over" 0 dBfs when decoded and converted to, say, "floating 32 bit"! Your expiriences?
danijel
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#75
22nd February 2011
Old 22nd February 2011
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sabovic Adis View Post
I know that, after dematrixing, the mix is going to be lower in level, but by how much?
Talking about the Dolby SR process for film tape (matrixing and SR noise reduction), at some point the whole mix is lowered by 3dB before being recorded to the optical track. Then after dematrixing in the theater, it's bumped up by 3dB again (tip by Steven Ghouti). This is just a film tape headroom thing. Otherwise, I don't know about levels being lowered during dematrixing....?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sabovic Adis View Post
Generaly, I found the DVDs and BRs soundtracks to be way too loud.
Do they get boosted prior to mastering or is DD actualy a floating type of "Digital"?
Got some DD samples they do go "over" 0 dBfs when decoded and converted to, say, "floating 32 bit"! Your expiriences?
Those could be some intersample overshoots....
How do you convert it to floating 32 bit? And why?
When I convert an AC3 to 24bit WAV, it can only hit 0dBFS, that's it
#76
23rd February 2011
Old 23rd February 2011
  #76
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Gotcha 'bout analog.

Digital...

Beeing composer, arranger, musician, recordist, editor, mixer, masterer
(You know how it's done in the Balkans) and film projectionist (in the movie theatre where I work) my self, I did some "snooping" on DVD&BR soundtracks-they just don't sound right to me. I know what the nonmastered mix-track looks like. Those DD to wav tracks sometimes are 0dBfs(peak)/-2dB(RMS)! -2dBRMS!!!! That's sinus wave with distortion pedal-he he he! Where is the "...extra headroom we added to our SR..."? Just check the "mastodont" scene in LOTR III (EE)-headroom, what's that? Can't be right, right?
I tried everything to "cool" things down-expanders, enhencers, "Clipped peak restoration"-s, Trans X-s (God knows what not), so I can get to present DVD-s &BR-s in my video club without embarrassment. Out of desperation, I accidentaly converted Resident Evil II to 32 bit float and...voila, headroom-actually only in the surrounds!
Up to 9 dB over full scale!
Don't ask me why only surr. Same DD to 24 bit "fixed"-regular clipp at 0 dBfs.... Fight club 5-6 dB over f.s.(float). Some other video-titles too...Old titles such as Alien, Star Trek etc. (Dolby A type of-coded material) or Aliens (Spectral recording), never go over 0. Only titles released in "extended dynamics" format, in theatres, have none "extention" on DVD&BR-huh huh huh! Have created some DD-overloads my self with Vegas Pro 9. They all get clipped when played back "normaly" by DVD player or decoder-preamp (Pioneer PD-07), but overall level is OK-compared to "Official DVD releases". When I go for "clean
nonclipped/nonlimited" sound, then level is low...and noise can be heard...If You're willing to experiment and have nothing better to do, You could try little something I "invented". Hope You're interrested.

Greetings from Sarajevo.
Adis
danijel
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#77
25th February 2011
Old 25th February 2011
  #77
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Thread Starter
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sabovic Adis View Post
Beeing composer, arranger, musician, recordist, editor, mixer, masterer
(You know how it's done in the Balkans) and film projectionist (in the movie theatre where I work)
Haha, at least you can't blame it on the projectionist if you project your own movie

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sabovic Adis View Post
Those DD to wav tracks sometimes are 0dBfs(peak)/-2dB(RMS)! -2dBRMS!!!! That's sinus wave with distortion pedal-he he he!
....
Up to 9 dB over full scale![/B][/I][/U] Don't ask me why only surr. Same DD to 24 bit "fixed"-regular clipp at 0 dBfs.... Fight club 5-6 dB over f.s.(float). ....
When I go for "clean nonclipped/nonlimited" sound, then level is low...and noise can be heard...
Frankly, I don't follow you.... How do you rip those sounds to WAV? AC3 and PCM found on DVDs and BR are consumer formats, they do not have floating point, and can't go past 0dBFS.... You have something wrong - try searching for 'ripping DVD audio' here on GS - many people do that, and there are no problems - no distortion, no noise.... In fact, those formats (and especially BR PCM) are superior to theatrical DD found on film tape, and most DVDs I ripped sound great, including the aforementioned Fight Club....
Cheers!
#78
4th March 2011
Old 4th March 2011
  #78
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[QUOTE=danijel;6375172]Haha, at least you can't blame it on the projectionist if you project your own movie

Yeah, right ha ha! If you want something to be done right, you have do do it yourself! Hell, I even did screenings for my eyes only I just didn't get to see the very start of the picture-'till I run down from the projection booth, or changeover projectors at the half of the movie ...but I'll get that fixed too ha ha! Star Trek-teleporter

I'll be back-on those levels...
danijel
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#79
4th March 2011
Old 4th March 2011
  #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sabovic Adis View Post
I'll be back-on those levels...
I checked your AC3 headroom (over 0dBFS) links, that's a real novelty to me.... I'll do some tests when I find the time....
#80
16th March 2011
Old 16th March 2011
  #80
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DTV Peaks

Hi everyone,

How are you dealing with peaks on DTV? I was used to -10 dBFS on standard analogue television deliveries, but I don't know if there is any special requirement for DTV. Everything seems to be focused on Dial Norm, but there are little specifications on peaks. Are you using full scale as in features? I've read HBO is asking for peaks not higher than -3 dBFS, but that's not first hand information, so wanted to ask you about your experience on the subject.

Thank you very much.
#81
28th March 2011
Old 28th March 2011
  #81
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About a month ago I was invited to an EBU workshop on loudness levels, new metering, and the necessity to make commercials have the same average loudness, not the same quasi-peak level (sorry about the buzz word but they were so insistent about PPMs not showing "true peak values"…

It's out with the dB, in with the LUV, -23 LU for everything, and everybody will have to change metering systems.

They were quite convinced that broadcast organisations across (at the very least) all of Europe would be changing to this standard (R128) in the next few years, eliminating the need to squeeze the final dB of dynamic range out of commercial mixes, making them essentially frequency modulated noise.
A unified standard for all media would make program interchange between different countries (or different organisations within the same country) much easier, and reduce the incidence of the "ads/mute syndrome so prevalent in todays televiewers.
danijel
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#82
28th March 2011
Old 28th March 2011
  #82
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Takeshi View Post
Hi everyone,

How are you dealing with peaks on DTV? I was used to -10 dBFS on standard analogue television deliveries, but I don't know if there is any special requirement for DTV. Everything seems to be focused on Dial Norm, but there are little specifications on peaks. Are you using full scale as in features? I've read HBO is asking for peaks not higher than -3 dBFS, but that's not first hand information, so wanted to ask you about your experience on the subject.

Thank you very much.
Hi Leandro,
I'm sorry, I thought someone from North America would respond, they are the only ones who completely adopted the loudness metering thus far. Unfortunately, as the early adopters, the way I see it, they had a lot of confusion about loudness, as there are 4-5 major US networks who each has it's own spec about loudness and true peak. Some of the specs are linked to in the OP, so check them out. Loudness is usually -23 to -27 LKFS, while the max peak ranges from -10 to -3 dBFS, and then there are all sorts of additional measurements to account for, they can be very complicated. AFAIK, rest of the world channels that adopted DTV, kept their simple true peak or PPM specs from the analog days. Well, delivery is digital for a long time anyway, the DTV thing is just between the broadcaster and the viewer. Now, I hope that EBU won't adopt something like -23 LUFS and -10dBFS peak - that would NOT be cool. And even when EBU adopts a standard, I'm not sure we'll see true change, because national broadcasters are much much weaker in most European countries then they were 20 yrs ago, and I guess they are the only ones who will care about this standard, unless it is enforced by law.
How's DTV adoption in Argentina? I see you are a PAL country surrounded by NTSC, and not a member of EBU. I guess pretty independent as far as TV standards go?
danijel
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#83
28th March 2011
Old 28th March 2011
  #83
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Originally Posted by snoopynow View Post
They were quite convinced that broadcast organisations across (at the very least) all of Europe would be changing to this standard (R128) in the next few years
Did they mention enforcing laws across all the EBU countries? I don't know how else they can hope for the standard, when only national broadcasters are members of EBU, which, in some (or most?) countries are not even the biggest broadcaster anymore. And enforcing laws across 56 countries is not realistic.... I'm not being pessimistic, I'm sure it will come eventually, but for the moment, I don't understand how. TV stations are certainly not going to invest into equipment, QC departments and changing their workflows by good will alone.
#84
4th April 2011
Old 4th April 2011
  #84
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Quote:
Originally Posted by danijel View Post
How's DTV adoption in Argentina? I see you are a PAL country surrounded by NTSC, and not a member of EBU. I guess pretty independent as far as TV standards go?
Hi Danijel,

Thank you for your response. Originally Argentina adopted US standard ATSC, but afterward this changed and we have a system called SATVD-T (Sistema Argentino de Television Digital Terrestre) based on the Japanese system ISDB-T.
Our standards usually are referred to European or American. Regarding audio levels, specs differ from different broadcasters, but more or less it's -20 dBFS for reference, -10 dBFS for peaks and that's it. We work for the US Latin market as well. Their specs are more detailed including loudness levels measured in LKFS.

Best,
#85
18th April 2011
Old 18th April 2011
  #85
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What peak levels do usually get on production dialog tracks?


Hope this isn't OT, just curious.
danijel
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#86
18th April 2011
Old 18th April 2011
  #86
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zoff View Post
What peak levels do usually get on production dialog tracks?


Hope this isn't OT, just curious.
They are, thanks god, getting lower and lower.
Old school production mixers want to get the levels consistently high (has to do with recording to mag tape and old post practices), and sometimes that is great if you don't have much time for dialog editing and mixing - peaks can go to 0dB when people yell, hitting the limiter, but the average loudness can be very close to that in the final mix.
More modern approach is to record at very low levels, as SNR is very good on 24bit digital recorders. I'm currently working on a short where most of the dialog has to be brought up by 20-24 dB to get it to the ballpark before dialog editing, and it sounds great.
#87
7th September 2011
Old 7th September 2011
  #87
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i'm a self-taught music producer. i'm stretching my skills to the limit by helping to mix an indie film in protools. there's hardly any music at all, mostly dialog. when i started working, i assumed that i'd be ok if i just kept everything under -10db (a figure that cd mastering houses like you to stay below.) i should probably output to dvd in a week and i thought i'd ask for a second opinion. i dont have the vocabulary to understand this entire thread, but can someone point out in layman's terms if i'm doing it terribly wrong? the audio sounds fine to me (even though it was pretty poorly recorded) i have a good ear for this work and find it enjoyable. i just need to know if i should increase or decrease the overall loudness, add limiting, etc. seriously, thanks.
danijel
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#88
8th September 2011
Old 8th September 2011
  #88
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rogdigi View Post
i just need to know if i should increase or decrease the overall loudness, add limiting, etc. seriously, thanks.
Hi, here's the simplest, yet pretty accurate method to get you in the ball-park: get the ATSC speech sample, play it back on your system, adjust the listening level so that you feel comfortable while listening. Now, don't touch the volume pot until you finish mixing (and this is a very firm rule!). Adjust the overall volume of your mix according to this new listening level, and continue mixing, all the while NEVER touching the level pot (I'm repeating this because you come from the music side - you'll have to tape down your volume pot, so you don't move it accidentally).
Now, if you want to make a one-size-fits-all mix, put a -10dBFS limiter on the master and mix through it (don't limit AFTER the mix is done, there is no music-like mastering in sound-for-picture). If you're not satisfied with the headroom you have, and you don't need to deliver for TV (only for the DVD and small festivals), you can limit at -2dBFS or so.
Remember, this calibration will get you in the broadcast & multimedia one-size-fits-all +/- 3dB ball-park. For cinema mix preparing/editing, or more accurate TV-style calibration, look at other methods.
Most importantly, have fun
#89
26th November 2011
Old 26th November 2011
  #89
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Hello,
for your information, here's a link to delivery specs that should be used by most French broadcasters before the end of the year :
http://cst.fr/IMG/pdf/CST_-_RT_017_-...english1-2.pdf
It's based on R128 loudness measurement, and you'll notice that specs differs depending on the length of the program (under 2' or above).
Obviously, this does not prevent you from getting (and reading) the official delivery specs from the broadcaster you're delivering to.

Manuel
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#90
26th November 2011
Old 26th November 2011
  #90
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Quote:
Originally Posted by audionuma View Post
[URL]http://cst.fr/IMG/pdf/CST_-_RT_017_-_TV_-
Haha, 3 pages of Video spec, and then ELEVEN pages for the Audio.
Thanks, I'll look into it one of these days, and maybe link it from the OP.
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