Film Scoring Advice!!!

neverfeather · 8th May 2008, 10:23 PM

I just recently have been contacted by an independent producer who wants me to score his indie film. It's not a feature, it's like 40 minutes. Anyway he offered me 100 bucks up front and seems really positive about my music. This is a major first time opportunity for me and I'm torn. The money is beyond awful and I've been getting a small amount of somewhat better paying work (demos for some music houses, random web page loops and flash games and corporate underscores). I definitely would only want to do this project if it was really going to benefit my reel/be a satisfying experience.

How would you guys determine the value of such a project. Mainly I'm curious about the ultimate production value and if he's gonna be really ambitious with submitting this project to festivals and stuff but I really just don't know what the hell I'm talking about. I need to know what questions to ask, what to look for etc. Please give me advice. I've got to respond to this guy's e-mail.

Thank you all sooo much. I realize I'm new to this forum, I've been a silent viewer for some time and now I could really use some feedback.

Thanks.

-brian.

soundfx · 8th May 2008, 10:53 PM

$100 is such an insult. BUT at least he's offering something. Go to Mandy.com and look at all the a-holes wanting a full-feature scored for free. God knows they could muster up even $100 like this guy at LEAST.

These circumstances vary so much from project to project that there is no right answer. You have to weigh the benefit to your career and experience before taking such gigs. And eventually, you can tell guys like this to shove it.

I realize I've been less than helpful and am venting. Perhaps someone else can offer more constructive advice.

terminal3 · 8th May 2008, 11:03 PM

$100 is in some ways more insulting than $0.

If you must do it, soundfx is right - make the judgment based on how much you need it. There are a million opportunities to work for free in the film world, trust me.

You could try do a points deal, but the reality is that most indie films don't make any money, ever. In fact, by most, I probably mean more than 99.9% of all indie films made will never turn a profit, and thus you will never see anything extra, even if you manage to get those points on the gross. Also, a 40 minute film is soooo difficult to program into a film festival it will reduce those chances severely. It's too short to be a feature and although technically it's a short, if a festival programs a 40 minute film they've had to sacrifice a good handful of shorter short films and many programmers are reluctant to do that.

"Festival potential" is such a buzz expression it hurts.

If you genuinely love the film and genuinely believe it will help your reel, then do it. Otherwise pass it along, especially if it's going to be a ridiculous amount of work (which they often are, especially when there's no money involved, the producers can ask for as many revisions as they want because each one is exactly as expensive as the last).

I like to stick with the better-paying work. Even if it's an awesome film (maybe it is!) it's a far smarter idea to do stuff that no one will ever see for money rather than do something higher-profile for free. Some may contradict that advice but I've been on both sides of of it.

Anyway, again, only you can make up your mind. Feel the guy out, see what he wants, see how much extra time you have to burn and decide whether you'd rather be doing something else!

espasonico · 8th May 2008, 11:06 PM

Someone who thinks that a 40 minute film score is worth $100 shouldnýt be making a film.

I would tell him ( if you wanna do it ) that you prefer to do it for free except expenses. Buy a couple of hard drives and give him your lunch tickets, etc and keep the rights for the music

TomD · 8th May 2008, 11:49 PM

How good is the film? You might want to do it for no money if you'll have something you can show potentially paying clients down the road. 40 minutes is a lot of music to write and produce, especially if it has to make sense with the picture. Might take you weeks, so if the film sucks you might want to blow it off.....

MotionPictureMan · 8th May 2008, 11:57 PM

I have done music for a few short films for free. It has allowed me to learn how to do it, and, with word of mouth, made me meet people looking for music for their film too (the problem is they didn't have any money neither - damn it!!!

).
If the project is artistically interesting AND if it doesn't take too much time, then why not? But it takes always more time than you thought it would at first, and 40 mn is quite a long run...

chrisso · 9th May 2008, 12:06 AM

The last two contributions nail it.
It is completely normal in the industry for people to work on short films, especially independents for free. It gets you experience, something for your showreel and some exposure.
Occasionally the exposure thing pays off. the film might take off and your name will be enhanced. More often than not the film comes and goes, and even if the film-maker snags themselves a bigger budget project, they are no more likely to hire you again (in my experience).
Working for free has a limited lifespan. Do it too much and you will be labeled 'cheap'.
Agree to do this film and perhaps a couple more. It can be great for experience and for your showreel.

MotionPictureMan · 9th May 2008, 12:08 AM

Another thing, a 40mn long film will never fit in a reel, in my opinion.
I had made a reel in which I put TV commercials i've made (all were about 30 sec long) AND a 8mn long short film. The clients always watched each of the commercial but NEVER watched more than 1mn of the movie (though it was a really great movie). These people don't have the time.
Anyway...

neverfeather · 9th May 2008, 12:26 AM

Thanks so much to all of you. Your advice is beyond sound. I feel like the chance to score a film will be invaluable. This particular production is rather obscure in it's content and I think it would be a really good environment for me to develop my chops scoring to picture. The money is a joke, and I'm perfectly aware of the absurdity of working for so little with such high investments. As we all know, this is the unfortunate nature of the music business sometimes. The vast majority of us have to pay our dues. I guess ultimately it really is about the production value of the film itself, and whether or not if I think the learning experience is important enough that I don't have to be concerned.

Ughh.

Don't you just wish you were me?

qubi · 9th May 2008, 12:33 AM

I haven't done indi films in a while, (tv ads and station branding stuff now mostly), but film is how i started out. And as mentioned in the past few posts, it can be a great experience, and you can learn a lot, IF you're working with the right person. sure, you can learn from a crappy director too, like how to avoid such people in the future! but in general writing for picture is a rewarding experience and can expand the way you work.. my first few films were either done for free, or for around $1500-2000. i guess i lucked out, but my sincere advice is, if you really like this film, and think it may help your credentials then do it for free.. Maybe ask for free beer or a gift or something if it works out well, but to me $100 will devalue your work. It's better for the director to say (which he very well might) that you did it as a favor because you believed in his work, then for him to brag about how he got his score for only 100 bucks! to me, THAT will label you as cheep.

IMHO, the indi film festival scene isn't very focused on the music. there are like 1000 festivals, and i've seen some pretty crap movies get into some of them. I've gotton some positive mentions for my work, but no real jobs. The biggest benefit has been the experience i've gained writing to picture, both from a technical point and in the way to communicate and understand the directors. And when an opportunity does come along, It looks good that you have some film experience under your belt.

best of luck

neverfeather · 9th May 2008, 12:42 AM

This may seem weird, but how do I determine the production value of the film. I can tell you it is a melodramatic mystery/drama about two drag queens. This fact obviously would have a dramatic effect on people's perception of me. It is undoubtedly obscure. He sent me a raw cut of the murder scene and said he almost didn't want to send it to me because it hadn't been edited all the way. The voices were all room miked. As an engineer the first place my head goes is, 'is he going to replace that dialogue?... probably not... will it sit over music and sound half decent?... that really depends on who is doing the mixing. There's something I know I don't want to get involved with.

The fact is I have no first hand experience with this and it's hard for me to make a judgement. The fun part about it is the melodrama thing. It is really campy and it goes between murderous rage and bad humour in a way that calls for a pretty interesting score.

Whatev... I'd love to hear more thoughts.

neverfeather · 9th May 2008, 12:55 AM

That's interesting. Thanks Qubi. Your perspective is the one I think I want to embrace. I've been composing for advertising mostly, I've mostly worked on spec but I've scored a few for pay. Things are always getting better. Portland is no media mecca but it has some buzz and there is definitely some talent here. I guess I like the humaneness in Qubi's words. Most of the composers I've met are very jaded. I feel myself becoming more jaded. This business has been a whirlwind of let-downs and small victories. No matter how much you ball up, it doesn't really seem like there's a way to avoid the emotional stress. Point is, I'm trying to make a living as a composer. The reason I'm doing it is because I feel a sense of purpose and value in my music, not because I want to bastardize my creative intellect. There's a balance. I have a wife that is so crazy she was actually excited when I e-mailed her about the film gig that paid 100 bucks. I want to take care of her too.

I think the practice I will get from this merits it. I'm gonna hit the coffee shop with a book on film scoring. I've only read parts of it, I need to get a thorough understanding of how this stuff works.

Seriously, everyone. It may seem like nothing but some of the stuff you've said has really been helpful both philosophically and simply for my own education. It means a lot. I'll be around.

drBill · 9th May 2008, 01:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by neverfeather

This may seem weird, but how do I determine the production value of the film. I can tell you it is a melodramatic mystery/drama about two drag queens. This fact obviously would have a dramatic effect on people's perception of me. It is undoubtedly obscure. He sent me a raw cut of the murder scene and said he almost didn't want to send it to me because it hadn't been edited all the way. The voices were all room miked. As an engineer the first place my head goes is, 'is he going to replace that dialogue?... probably not... will it sit over music and sound half decent?... that really depends on who is doing the mixing. There's something I know I don't want to get involved with.

I think you just answered your own question. I suggest you bail. It sounds like the director/producer is an amature. Like others have said, there's plenty of opportunities to work for free. The bottom line is that he can't even get library music to fill the film with for $100. If you can't show it to people due to the content or due to the lousy production, it's worthless to you.

rhumphries · 9th May 2008, 01:39 AM

One more thing that I don't think anyone has mentioned is that projects done for free somehow end up being the most trouble. I think it's because the one asking for the service has no limits that a budget would otherwise impose. The result is that often the expectations and the amount of work get out of control.

This project has the potential for that pitfall, but you actually are getting paid, which strangely compounds the problem, because now you are on the hook. You don't have the easy out that you would if the project were pro-bono and you could just walk away.

If you do take the job, I'd suggest that you set some serious boundaries regarding the amount of music expected and the number of revisions, etc.

Best of luck,

Richard

qubi · 9th May 2008, 01:47 AM

Hey neverfeather, I'm glad my post may have helped. It seems that you are indeed interested in this film, so i think you should do it (but i still think you shouldn't take the $100).. just make sure the director invites you and your wife to the premiere, and the after party! You obviously have experience working to picture. film directors tend to be a slightly different animal though.. more emotional and involved, and always have an image in their head of what they want, but sometimes don't know how to express it. Sometimes its not even the best idea, and they need someone to open up the possibilities for them.. But to me, that's the most fun, trying to understand what they want, more then they do. Sometimes you do, sometimes you don't, but in both cases you'll learn something new that will come in handy the next time.

As for reading up on film scoring, that can help. But also, ask the director/producer about what he likes and what he's feeling musically. then look into that composer's work. not to copy, but to get a better picture of what they envision. Even the big name composers often have to succumb to a director's temp track, because it's usually so ingrained in their minds that it becomes hard to give them anything that deviates too much. But I've always liked finding ways to make creative bursts that explode within confined bounderies, rather than a complete open slate

As a last note, a good friend of mine who lives in dubai and works with TV music recently did a soundtrack for an US indi. The film was awful, but she didn't know it because she started work after seeing only a few clips. she was promised $1000 which i don't even know if she got, and she ended up doing the final sound mix!! But, she posted some of her stuff on her myspace page and got some really good comments from Clint Mansell. That in itself made the whole experience worth it for her, and, IMO she gained a great experience as a composer in the process..

again, good luck and i hope it all works out for the best.

qubi · 9th May 2008, 02:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rhumphries

If you do take the job, I'd suggest that you set some serious boundaries regarding the amount of music expected and the number of revisions, etc.

Best of luck,

Richard

Totally agree.. If you take this it should be because YOU want to explore a new avenue of composing. And its only fair to make it clear to the director that you want to do it, but set your limits: Time, revisions, mix quality and mastering.. He can't expect you to pay for live musician's or pro mastering for no budget. Also, from my experience, a 40 min film could take up to 2 to 3 weeks (max, after final cut is delivered), and he should know that you are a working professional and will have to "fit" his job in. Again, in the end you are doing this for yourself, so you count it as a non-paid sabbatical, but since this is your main job, you shouldn't sacrifice too many other paying opportunities in the process. If his demands are unrealistic and you feel you wouldn't be able to produce something that you'll be happy with, then i think you should skip it. The last thing you want is to do something that won't make your showreel, and that the director will slag off because he didn't like it.

jahtao · 9th May 2008, 02:28 AM

Doing a little job atm for a mate for free. Argeed based on his description of the project. I would have described it differently. And I wouldn't have agreed. Know what you're getting into. Free? $100? Its all good if its all good.

qubi · 9th May 2008, 02:37 AM

By the way, if you do take the job, please try to determine who you answer to. I've have a few jobs where there was a conflict between director and producer. It can become a real headache, and if you're not getting paid its not worth it. I always like to make sure of the chain of command and know who is calling the shots and deal with them directly.

neverfeather · 9th May 2008, 06:29 AM

thanks all. Once again I very much appreciate it. I'm actually pretty interested in the project, just because I think it will be ridiculously good for me to work on my scoring chops and it looks like a fun production. I'm definitely gonna talk to him about boundaries. He said he had 100 in the budget but was 'flexible.' I might see what that means. Either it's zero or it's gotta be maybe in the 500 range. I just don't think he has that kind of budget. The guy is that is directing is also producing, still there could easily be more irons in the fire.

I'll keep you all updated.

cheers.

soundfx · 9th May 2008, 04:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by neverfeather

thanks all. Once again I very much appreciate it. I'm actually pretty interested in the project, just because I think it will be ridiculously good for me to work on my scoring chops and it looks like a fun production. I'm definitely gonna talk to him about boundaries. He said he had 100 in the budget but was 'flexible.' I might see what that means. Either it's zero or it's gotta be maybe in the 500 range. I just don't think he has that kind of budget. The guy is that is directing is also producing, still there could easily be more irons in the fire.

I'll keep you all updated.

cheers.

$100 isn't a budget...its lunch money. What kind of assmonkey says he has $100 in the "budget" for a composer? A composer who is going to spend many many many hours working on the film. I agree with the third poster now....$100 is more insulting than nothing...he's assuming you are dumb.

BUT...I could be wrong. ;-)

And do the movie anyway if it really looks good. Just be cautioned that if it isn't mixed properly, your music is going to be tied to a shitty sounding project and likely lumped in as being shitty also, by no fault of your own. Either way, best of luck.

Sonsey@mac.com · 9th May 2008, 05:53 PM

My 2 cents...

NEVER, NEVER, NEVER work for NOTHING... and let's face it, $100.00 is nothing in a monetary sense. Now SOMETHING doesn't have to be money... It can be the opportunity to work on something you really feel strongly about. It can be a chance to work with someone you really enjoy spending time with (and you WILL be spending a lot of time with the director). It can be about a learning experience -although if you're already getting paying gigs, I don't think you may need it. It can even be the feeling of helping someone out who you think will appreciate it (although in my experience, they seldom do...). But you MUST get some form of compensation, whether or emotional or financial. If you're interested in it, then by all means, meet with the director/producer and then go with what your heart and head tell you. Doing a gig for nothing, just to do it, does nothing except devalue you and your craft...

chrisso · 9th May 2008, 11:30 PM

I would go with Qubi on this.

I can't believe some of the other comments though.
Either the scene is very different in the USA to the UK, the posters are long established film composers, or haven't worked as a film composer.
fact is, over the last 15 years budgets have radically shrunk, and at the same time scoring has become ultra competitive.
A lot of those musicians and studio types from the pop/rock scene have seen film scoring as a get out of jail option, with the decline of work in their usual scene.
There are usually a bunch of composers going for each job.
Experience and a good show reel counts for a helluva lot.
Go for a scoring job with limited experience and the attitude that the budget is too small, and you wont get a foot in the door.
Fact is, even on major movies the music is often the last thing that gets thought about and often an after thought. It's quite usual to be told "well we spent half the music budget on reshooting some scenes that weren't working. Sorry"
It's also very normal to build up some skills, experience and examples of your work by working for free or for expenses only on student films or tiny independent films.
You don't do it alot and you set strict boundaries as mentioned above.

ggegan · 10th May 2008, 12:24 AM

I used to write scores for documentaries, industrials and tv dramas when I lived in Toronto back in the 70's. They weren't big paying jobs, but I made a decent living by being creative about how I charged.

First of all, I was a part owner of a small recording studio where I would record the scores, so I earned money from the studio charges.

Secondly, I also was the conductor or lead musician for all the sessions. The sessions were always union sessions which I ran strictly by the rules, so as the leader I earned double scale and further additional payments for every instrument I doubled on, usually 2 or 3.

Thirdly, I also did all my own copying and music editing, so that also kept the money in my pocket.

My composing fee was always minimal, but I traded a lower up front fee by restricting the licensing rights I awarded. For example I would either limit the time or the territory that was included. Time extensions or foreign rights would have to be paid for later, usually after the client found a foreign distributor, and often at a pre-determined fee. While this may not be typical in work for hire situations, I found that the clients were generally willing to agree to this arrangement because I had a reputation for being reliable and flexible, plus I did everything I possibly could to give them a great score at a reasonable price.

I should emphasize that these scores had all the parts written out and were recorded in booked studio sessions with the clock running. I would give a written estimate of the studio time required and how much that would cost and the sessions were booked in the clients name. The client was always welcome to attend the session, so they could see what they were paying for. I would play them sketches of the music beforehand, so they had a general idea of what they would be getting, and they were always informed that if they asked for changes in during the session, they were responsible for the overages in session fees and studio time.

I understand that when composers create scores in their home studios by themselves using modern computer systems that this scenario doesn't really work, and that is the downside of that type of score.

The one thing that I have learned over the years from working in music, film, graphic arts and several other industries is that people tend not to value what they don't have to pay for. If you give something away for free, you yourself have set the value of your contribution, and the client will definitely absorb that message. I'm not saying that you should price yourself out of the market, but you need to let the client know that your time, creativity and the product you are supplying is a valuable asset for them.

I used to do a fair amount of pro bono mixing for student film makers until I realized that they never came back when they had a budget, yet my professional clients were very loyal. That's when I clued into the fact that I had devalued myself in their eyes by giving them something for nothing.

qubi · 10th May 2008, 01:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ggegan

I used to do a fair amount of pro bono mixing for student film makers until I realized that they never came back when they had a budget, yet my professional clients were very loyal. That's when I clued into the fact that I had devalued myself in their eyes by giving them something for nothing.

not to get too off topic here, but i totally agree with this statement.. When i started out in my market (for tv/corporate music) I was at the low end of the scale. That was fine for a while, but quickly realized that as long as i could offer something most of my competitors weren't, then i needed to raise my fees. At first some people didn't like it, but the professional clients, who actually came to me because they liked what i gave them, and not just because they needed "30 sec. of some background music", are still with me 7 years later. Now I'm happily (knock on wood) in the upper scale of my market, and tend to attract the type of client that although demanding, knows what they want and are willing to pay for it. I've seen too many fellow musician's/composer's fall into the trap of low balling their fees, just in the hope of gaining favor with the client and "building a name" for themselves. But if you do that too long, the only name you'll build for yourself is "cheap". Maybe I've lost jobs for my pricing, but honestly, like someone mentioned earlier here, the cheapo jobs tend the MOST headache. Would i still take a job Pro-bono or at a reduced fee?? sure, if i really believed in it, and thought it would open up new avenues for me. And i think that may be the case for neverfeather. Although he has experience with TV, film is a new area, and even for someone established in one genre, it doesn't automatically qualify you (at least in the eyes of the client) to jump into another. So if you believe you can gain something, whether financial, emotional, experiential, or in pure future potential, then do it.. just don't do it for too long, and never devalue yourself.

chrisso · 10th May 2008, 04:35 AM

I agree with the above (and the quote that was being addressed).

Unfortunately, the home studio scenario has become widespread.
Also, film makers knowledge of what is possible using samples etc.
Music budgets have taken a nose dive because film companies don't often value the sound of 'real' music and are happy to compromise with sampled orchestras etc.
They know that there are too many wouldbe film composers and that in the past film composers have been willing to submit to crazy low budgets and crazy time scheduling.
I also agree that in my experience, the cheapo projects I worked on mostly didn't go anywhere and the cheapo film directors forget me as soon as they had enough budget to hire a more expensive composer.
Again though, there is much importance placed on your film scoring body of work, and the music on your showreel. If neither are good, stating you wont get out of bed for less than $2000 is a useless exercise.
Low budget films are generally there so everyone can learn their craft, without blowing thousands of dollars or your first big break.

drBill · 10th May 2008, 09:02 PM

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