Levels on Masters For Broadcast

audiobob10 · 7th May 2008

Ok, here is the problem---I am located in the Detroit market and we seem to be having a problem with our spots when they air. There are several large post houses in town all working with A+ gear and A+ mixers, and the mixes themselves sound great coming off the masters. Most mixers in this market have at least 20 years of experience.

After the masters are striped they are send to our local dg hub and sent to chicago for distribution to the networks, stations etc.

There seems to be two schools of thought here, one that uses vu meters (-18=0vu) and those who print right up to .001 ppm. We are trying to determing what is happening to cause the problem with the spots and the feedback from this forum is one of our tools. Having said all this here are the questions:

What level on masters are you putting on tape?
What is the process after the master is striped as far as getting it to air?
What is the final signal chain between console and master machine?

Again, this is a starting place, I know that once the tape leaves my hands it goes thru so many stages before it hits the air that it is amazing sometime that anything actually makes it on the air.

UnderTow · 7th May 2008

What is the actual problem?

(You never state it in your post).

Alistair

audiobob10 · 7th May 2008

The problem is that the spots sound low in level and have no punch compaired to what they sound like in the studio.

jacobfarron · 7th May 2008

I can't speak for others... but I limit hard at -12dBFS for broadcast (0VU = -20dBFS). Keep the RMS around -20, and my dialnorm shows -19Leq(A).

UnderTow · 8th May 2008

For stuff that needs to sound loud, I tend to lean more on compression than limiting. It seems to get through the Optimod's and 2020's better that way.

For the rest, the loud TV mixes (adverts) usually don't sound too good in the studio. Loud mixes have the frequencies we are most sensitive to boosted and the rest lowered so they sound a bit like a cheap radio. (Not too much though).

I'm in the Netherlands. We have different TV standards here (-9 dB FS peak and no RMS standards) so I don't know what RMS or dialnorm levels I am working at (as I never check).

Alistair

jacobfarron · 8th May 2008

I agree it doesn't sound too impressive in the studio, but works over air.

soundfx · 8th May 2008

Damn shame we have to produce garbage in the studio to make it sound good on air. I love pristine audio work, but in promo-land, its all painfully crushed.

mikevarela · 9th May 2008

we run at -7 dbfs hard limit and ride most about 3-4 db under that. i think its 0vu = -20 dbfs, but -18 is also standard.

nathand · 9th May 2008

I'm Limiting at -8.

I use a set of Dorroughs and keep the mix right around 0 on the meter. (0vu = -20)

Jacob are you doing commercials at those levels?

N8

PS - audiobob, i think the real question is how hard are you hitting your limiter. Sometimes I get splits that look like tone. I wonder if the networks are only using peak meters to determine pass or fail. If so, these crushed mixes will get through and sound louder on air. I just can't seem to get myself to ignore my VU's and mix with 0 dynamic range.

jacobfarron · 11th May 2008

Yeah Nathand, I've been doing commericals there. I know they're taking the Final Cut session straight to BetaSP most of the time. Over -12dBFS (without the deck limiter) starts sounding distorted on our decks.

7th May 2008	#1
audiobob10 Gear interested Joined: Oct 2005 Location: Southfield Michigan Posts: 26 Thread Starter	Levels on Masters For Broadcast Ok, here is the problem---I am located in the Detroit market and we seem to be having a problem with our spots when they air. There are several large post houses in town all working with A+ gear and A+ mixers, and the mixes themselves sound great coming off the masters. Most mixers in this market have at least 20 years of experience. After the masters are striped they are send to our local dg hub and sent to chicago for distribution to the networks, stations etc. There seems to be two schools of thought here, one that uses vu meters (-18=0vu) and those who print right up to .001 ppm. We are trying to determing what is happening to cause the problem with the spots and the feedback from this forum is one of our tools. Having said all this here are the questions: What level on masters are you putting on tape? What is the process after the master is striped as far as getting it to air? What is the final signal chain between console and master machine? Again, this is a starting place, I know that once the tape leaves my hands it goes thru so many stages before it hits the air that it is amazing sometime that anything actually makes it on the air. __________________ Sr. Audio Engineer/Audio Post Supervisor The Underground @ Doner Southfield, Michigan

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7th May 2008	#2
UnderTow Lives for gear Joined: Mar 2006 Location: the Netherlands Posts: 3,953	What is the actual problem? (You never state it in your post). Alistair

7th May 2008	#4
jacobfarron Gear addict Joined: Oct 2007 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 309	I can't speak for others... but I limit hard at -12dBFS for broadcast (0VU = -20dBFS). Keep the RMS around -20, and my dialnorm shows -19Leq(A).

8th May 2008	#5
UnderTow Lives for gear Joined: Mar 2006 Location: the Netherlands Posts: 3,953	For stuff that needs to sound loud, I tend to lean more on compression than limiting. It seems to get through the Optimod's and 2020's better that way. For the rest, the loud TV mixes (adverts) usually don't sound too good in the studio. Loud mixes have the frequencies we are most sensitive to boosted and the rest lowered so they sound a bit like a cheap radio. (Not too much though). I'm in the Netherlands. We have different TV standards here (-9 dB FS peak and no RMS standards) so I don't know what RMS or dialnorm levels I am working at (as I never check). Alistair

8th May 2008	#7
soundfx Gear addict Joined: Feb 2007 Posts: 353	Damn shame we have to produce garbage in the studio to make it sound good on air. I love pristine audio work, but in promo-land, its all painfully crushed.

9th May 2008	#8
mikevarela Gear addict Joined: Apr 2008 Location: Hollywood, CA Posts: 412	we run at -7 dbfs hard limit and ride most about 3-4 db under that. i think its 0vu = -20 dbfs, but -18 is also standard.

9th May 2008	#9
nathand Gear addict Joined: Dec 2007 Posts: 379	I'm Limiting at -8. I use a set of Dorroughs and keep the mix right around 0 on the meter. (0vu = -20) Jacob are you doing commercials at those levels? N8 PS - audiobob, i think the real question is how hard are you hitting your limiter. Sometimes I get splits that look like tone. I wonder if the networks are only using peak meters to determine pass or fail. If so, these crushed mixes will get through and sound louder on air. I just can't seem to get myself to ignore my VU's and mix with 0 dynamic range.

11th May 2008	#10
jacobfarron Gear addict Joined: Oct 2007 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 309	Yeah Nathand, I've been doing commericals there. I know they're taking the Final Cut session straight to BetaSP most of the time. Over -12dBFS (without the deck limiter) starts sounding distorted on our decks.