Stem/mix limiting

[AVRAMOLEW]

We had a discussion at work about Stem limiting. Thought I would see what you guys/gals thought of it.

Okay the idea is.... When you have a project that the client wants the stems so that they can recreate the mix in Avid/FCP. Also, the mix needs to be limited at -10dbfs. So if you limit each stem at -10 when summed the level could exceed -10. I am of the idea of limiting each stem and if the mix goes over -10 then pull something down or adjust. Simple, but there seem to be a few POV's on this. One POV was that they don't have time to stop and attenuate the level if the summed exceeds the -10. Another point of view being to just limit the master buss then bounce the stems through that.

This is kind of a dumb and nit picky but somehow the discussion started.

[marty lester]

Originally Posted by AVRAMOLEW

We had a discussion at work about Stem limiting. Thought I would see what you guys/gals thought of it.

Okay the idea is.... When you have a project that the client wants the stems so that they can recreate the mix in Avid/FCP. Also, the mix needs to be limited at -10dbfs. So if you limit each stem at -10 when summed the level could exceed -10. I am of the idea of limiting each stem and if the mix goes over -10 then pull something down or adjust. Simple, but there seem to be a few POV's on this. One POV was that they don't have time to stop and attenuate the level if the summed exceeds the -10. Another point of view being to just limit the master buss then bounce the stems through that.

This is kind of a dumb and nit picky but somehow the discussion started.

yeah, i've had this discussion myself. we do music/sound design/etc for radio and TV commercials. we have to provide stems or "splits" all the time.

i do tend to bypass the final stereo buss limiting for my splits, knowing full-well the
next person who gets my audio will likely not have the same plug-ins (especially if it's an AVID editor or the like) so i know i might be hosed.

in the end, i urge the people who get the audio next (video layback folks, etc) to
let me know if i need to augment the mix in hopes that they'll use my revision
instead of messing w/ my splits. i'd say the bulk of the time they use my
full mix, but i've heard mixes tortured from "splits-abuse" too.

i'd love to hear how the big-city folks handle this...

marty

[b808]

I tend to limit the master buss at -6dbfs to 8dbfs and throw some light compression on each stem (if needed). I'm pretty sure this does not answer your question.

[Henchman]

Originally Posted by AVRAMOLEW

One POV was that they don't have time to stop and attenuate the level if the summed exceeds the -10.

Well, IMO, that's just being lazy.
That's how I've learnt to mix for years.
Watch the levels on the master out, and pull down whatever is causing the problem.
I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that called MIXING!!!!!

I completely disagree with just using a master buss limiter to fix it. As it then is affecting all elements, and psuhing htem down, IE dialog etc.
And personally, that is NOT what I want to have going on with my mixes.

Just riding master busses, is NOT mixing, IMO. I never ride my master stem busses, I always work on individual elements if they are causing problems.

[JoeMilner]

And, if the stems are limited going to the printmaster bus, then they're technically not stems anymore, and it will be much more difficult to accurately update the mix as without the identical limiting they won't match the original printmaster. Stems are designed to create the printmaster without ANY additional processing, EQ, leveling, etc.
So, IMHO, any and all processing should be done upstream of the stems.

[Henchman]

Originally Posted by JoeMilner

And, if the stems are limited going to the printmaster bus, then they're technically not stems anymore, and it will be much more difficult to accurately update the mix as without the identical limiting they won't match the original printmaster. Stems are designed to create the printmaster without ANY additional processing, EQ, leveling, etc.
So, IMHO, any and all processing should be done upstream of the stems.

Absolutely 100%.

[Brent Hahn]

I completely agree with you in principle, Mark. But in the advertising world, there's a loudness war. Ad agency folks, who these days all seem to be in their early teens, want their spots as loud as the stuff they download off of iTunes. And they review and approve on their MacBooks, which don't exactly go to 11 (this could be a thread in itself). There just ain't no way to give them that without compressing the 2 buss. Fortunately, everyone I most often exchange projects, files, and stems with is in the same boat, so we all know enough to pass along any info about how the mix got squashed.

Originally Posted by Henchman

I completely disagree with just using a master buss limiter to fix it.

[Henchman]

Originally Posted by Brent Hahn

I completely agree with you in principle, Mark. But in the advertising world, there's a loudness war. Ad agency folks, who these days all seem to be in their early teens, want their spots as loud as the stuff they download off of iTunes. And they review and approve on their MacBooks, which don't exactly go to 11 (this could be a thread in itself). There just ain't no way to give them that without compressing the 2 buss. Fortunately, everyone I most often exchange projects, files, and stems with is in the same boat, so we all know enough to pass along any info about how the mix got squashed.

I should have added, that I am talking about longform, docs, films TV etc.
Not advertising.

[nathand]

FYI -

When I started the related post the other day, I very much had advertising work in mind.

That day I had to revise a spot from stems which were peaking at -1 !!!

The Full Mix was peaking at -8 !!!

N8

[AVRAMOLEW]

Thanks for all your insight on this guys. I'm not the at the helm this specific project that I originally posted about, but I'm pretty sure it was advertising. I agree do with the idea of no processing on stems and process on the source tracks. Thats how I was taught. Though I'm pretty sure the premise was for the client to open the stems in FCP/Avid have the sum be the same as the final mix so they can do some edits or god knows what and not have to come back and have it mixed again. So its a question of what's the best way to to make a prefab master but still split into stems? Though also keeping the peaks at -10 on the master based on what they asked for.

[JoeMilner]

Hi there,
The way to do it is to put your limiter or any other "overall" processing on the bus masters that feed the stems, then the stems go straight into the printmaster. Then, ya gotta watch the meters on the printmaster. The "set it and forget it" approach is what gets people into trouble.
Hope this helps, good luck !

[ggegan]

I will often put limiters on the stems at about +18, just as a safety mechanism. I try very hard not to hit them, but I inevitably do from time to time. When you are working with hundreds of tracks, every once in a while things can get a little out of hand, especially if the director wants to get really loud, which happens a lot. In the old days you had tape compression from the mag that helped to round off spikes, but now the digital transients are unencumbered. I find that if I'm careful, I can lop the extreme transients off and keep out of clipping without audible artifacts.