2 sync issues

[jacobfarron]

1) I'm getting ready for another session that will be a 'making of' for DVD, so we are using behind the scenes footage, and the actual feature - and I've only got a few parts of the puzzle so far. The feature's master video is on HDCam running at 23.976 separated into reels - with a guide track, which has been dubbed to DVCProHD with the same timecode, then ingested into Final Cut Pro at 29.97 NDF. I have the D/M/E and surround stems for each reel from the stage as Pro Tools sessions, this timecode is at 29.97 NDF with a .1% pulldown via Sync I/O. I won't have the video to cut to for another few days. But, I did have to provide OMF's from the Pro Tools sessions for our video editor of the reels - which I'm hoping will be in sync. So here's the question: Was the .1% pulldown on the Sync likely for the film printmaster? I will eventually find out by trial and error but I'd like to have an idea before the session begins, and I can't get ahold of the studio that made them. If my sync does drift, I should be able to use the TC/E audiosuite to perform the .1% correct? Since all of my behind the scenes audio will be at the proper rate, I don't want to pull my whole session down to with the Sync I/O.

2) Recently I mixed a few HD (720P 59.94) commercials - being up-resed to 1080i for final delivery. My SD Quicktime video ref had a 59.94 timecode burn in and ProTools HD recognized the frame rate fine. But I can't set the sessions frame rate to that. Luckily, these were :30 spots and I didn't have to spot effects, and the clients didn't mind. So how are you all dealing with 59.94?

[nathand]

When working at 59.94 I leave everything set to 29.97

I was once told that since 59.94 is simply 2x 29.97 that they can be thought of as the same thing.

So far so good.

N8

[jacobfarron]

Sounds good to me, although say I need to spot an effect at 01:23:04:50 ??? I don't have this option with my timeline set to 29.97. Thats where I'm worried I'll run into a problem.

[jacobfarron]

Just answered my own questions I think. Someone correct me if I'm wrong here: - .1% pulldown is from film to video, +.1% pull UP is for video to film, so... the pulldown on my project is likely for the video transfer, thus I should audiosuite those files since I will not be returning to film.

Also, I just noticed the timecode 2 rate can be set to 59.94, but not timecode 1. - so I still can't spot to 59.94 according to the manual.

[gsilbers]

im a little confused...

did you say a 29.97 non drop and on top a pull down or is it already dropped to 29.97?

the OMF come from a sound studio or from a video editor?

or was it a pro tools session?

is the end result be a 23.98 or 29.97D or non drop?

[gsilbers]

Originally Posted by nathand

When working at 59.94 I leave everything set to 29.97

I was once told that since 59.94 is simply 2x 29.97 that they can be thought of as the same thing.

So far so good.

N8

yep. true that

[jacobfarron]

The master tapes were 23.976 -> dubbed and ingested into Final Cut at 29.97 ND. The sound I have is the Pro Tools sessions from the dub stage Time Code rate is 29.97 ND - under session setup it's being pulled down .1% via the Sync I/O - so my actual session is running at 47.952. And my question was... was that pulldown so it will be in sync with the videotape transfer, or the film (which is the feature's final delivery). Now, from re-reading some books, I've figured out this pulldown must be for the video transfer. So, I've disabled the session pulldown, used Audiosuite to perform the pulldown, and created omf's of each reel for our video editor. Now when he's done editing, hopefully all will be well for the mix with no pulldowns necessary. Our final delivery is 29.97 ND.

And I'm still have trouble believing I can't get 59.94 on the Big Counter... but that's what the manual says. I only have a SYNC I/O, is this where the SYNC HD comes into play? I suppose if I need to spot in reference to my video's burn in I can set the session to 29.97, grid values to 1/2 frame, and then I'll sort of be at 59.94. Or am I over thinking this?

[Eric L]

59.94 is not a frame rate, it's a "field rate". This term is used when the hd masters are interlaced instead of progressive. Since there are two fields for every interlaced frame, 59.94 = 29.97. You can not spot to a field only to a frame. TC does not count in fields, only frames (and subframes).

Also, when dealing with .1% pulls, it is better to do a sample rate convert by importing the tracks into a new session and applying the correct source sample rate conversion.

Audio suite will be close and may work when you have few regions and files. If you have many files to convert it is easier and more accurate to do it on import.

[jacobfarron]

59.94 is not a frame rate, it's a "field rate".

Not exactly... my situation is different. The project was shot on the Varicam, with DVCProHD codec, 720p with an editing timebase of 59.94 in FCP. According to my editor, there ARE 59.94 frames, and the field rate is 59.94. The video track in Pro Tools even recognizes the frame rate of 59.94, the timecode burn for each frame goes to 59.

Also, when dealing with .1% pulls, it is better to do a sample rate convert by importing the tracks into a new session and applying the correct source sample rate conversion.

How can I sample rate convert by .1% by importing tracks to a new session? The regions I have are mixed stems at 48k (not 48048), if I did an import and tried to pull down it would be 47,952? The reason I wanted to do the Audiosuite is so I have a normal session rate for the rest of the project... otherwise I'd just use the Sync I/O to pull it down (just as the mixers did)

[minister]

ask the editor to give you a 29.97 video.

if you PLACE something at a frame, it will still playback properly relative to real time. no one will tell you to spot something at frame 50. just spot something again picture until it LOOKS right.

import tracks, select SRC, then the appropriate source rate for your conversion.

why no Sync I/O?

[jacobfarron]

Thanks minister, I will ask for 29.97 if possible in the future. As for

why no Sync I/O?

Right now I have 5 Pro Tools sessions from another studio with DME stems (Feature) and their setup has a pulldown from the SYNC I/O. My video editor has 5 Final Cut sessions (he imported video from tapes). He wants OMF files of the audio to match the picture. So you can see... Although I have a SYNC to pulldown with, it won't affect an OMF export... so without a pulldown via Audiosuite, the OMF I provide my editor will drift. He's going to compile these feature reels, edit them with the making of footage he shot, and bring it all back here where I'll create a new session to mix the show. Instead of giving him just stereo, I want him to have the entire OMF while he cuts, because last time he only had stereo and I had to conform the feature DME so we could meet our programs deliverables.

[Eric L]

Originally Posted by jacobfarron

Not exactly... my situation is different. The project was shot on the Varicam, with DVCProHD codec, 720p with an editing timebase of 59.94 in FCP. According to my editor, there ARE 59.94 frames, and the field rate is 59.94. The video track in Pro Tools even recognizes the frame rate of 59.94, the timecode burn for each frame goes to 59.

Okay. This can be confusing so let me try to clarify my earlier post. 59.94 only exists in HD. It is used when the HD masters are destined to be used on an NTSC medium (television or dvd etc). It is technically 59.94 interlaced fields per second unless it is progressive and then the field lines are doubled and shown as progressive frames. But these are not always truly unique frames, depending on how the video info was captured and displayed. 1080i is 59.94 fields, each showing 540 lines per field. 720p is 59.94 "quasi frames" per second showing all 720 lines per frame.

In either case, if they are giving you a SD video to work with as you said in your post, then the tc burn should reflect the frame rate of the video they give you. In this case, you should have two burns, one for 59.94 and one for 29.97. The important thing here, is that there is no speed change between the two.

As far as the Varicam is concerned, shooting 59.94 is usually reserved for "overcranking" for the slo mo effect when played back at 29.97. The Varicam always records to tape at 60 frames per second, regardless of frame rate setting. When the operator sets the camera to 23.98, or 29.97 they are telling the camera which frames to "flag" within the 60 fps that will be "extracted" by the NLE system for actual cutting. The camera can be set to record 59.94 fps with no flags, but I do not know why one would do this. I was not aware that people are cutting at 59.94. This is technically possible, but again I am not sure why they would. But I am not a DP, just a sound mixer.

Long story short, 59.94 and 29.97 run at the same speed but are displayed differently based on the medium. We work on "HD" films all the time and they are always 23.98. I'd like to know why your stuff was 59.94.

[jacobfarron]

Good lord. Eric thanks for the clarification. There is simply an overwhelming amount of information to know!

[minister]

just picking up on what EL said.....

is your editor relatively new to HD? you can create a 59.94 sequence in FCP. and it is likely that s/he simply output a TC burn from his sequence.

[jacobfarron]

My usual editor isn't... but the one who gave me the Quicktime is new to HD. I spent a LOT of time fixing his mistakes, so it wouldn't supprise me if he did something out of the norm.

[minister]

Set Time Code 2 in the session setup window to 59.94 and reveal that track in the Edit window.

[jacobfarron]

Now that I have picture, I checked sync after using Audiosuite Timeshift (Film to NTSC -.1% down) it DID NOT LINE UP the same way using the SYNC I/O did to pull down the session. So a WARNING to everyone: DO NOT USE AUDIOSUITE TO DO POST FORMAT CONVERSIONS!!! IT'S NOT ACCURATE ENOUGH!!! - for an 18 minute reel, Audiosuite was off more than 5 frames from picture stop. Instead, use import session data feature that joe milner describes:

Hi,
if you're using Pro Tools, it's easy. You just need to convert your stuff from film speed to video speed.

I'm assuming that your stems & printmasters are on tracks in a session that is 29.97, .1% pulled down. Make a new session at 29.97, no pulldown. "Import Session Data" and check the "Use SRC" (I think it's called) box, and select the source sample rate as 47952 (or 44056 if you're at 44.1), and use "Best" quality. Select the tracks you want to import, and go have some coffee. Done and Done.

[Eric L]

Originally Posted by jacobfarron

Now that I have picture, I checked sync after using Audiosuite Timeshift (Film to NTSC -.1% down) it DID NOT LINE UP the same way using the SYNC I/O did to pull down the session. So a WARNING to everyone: DO NOT USE AUDIOSUITE TO DO POST FORMAT CONVERSIONS!!! IT'S NOT ACCURATE ENOUGH!!! - for an 18 minute reel, Audiosuite was off more than 5 frames from picture stop. Instead, use import session data feature that joe milner describes:

Just for the record, both myself and Minister suggested this to you earlier in this very thread. Regardless, I'm glad you have it figured out.

[jacobfarron]

Eric, re-reading I see that you did. For whatever reason I failed to grasp the importance of your advice. I wish I had done that to begin with... but as you say, now I've learned the hard way Audiosuite is inaccurate.