Mixing with the Dolby LM100

[Tapwatr]

What's up Slutz, this is my first post.

I am looking for some advice. The studio I work at recently acquired an LM100 for a new show we're doing. I've just started my first mix with it and it's not fun. I am wondering if anybody who has experience with this box has any tips on let's say "streamlining" the process of mixing with it.

I have to keep the dialogue between -26 and -28 and it just seems like it's taking a long time.

Thanks in advance.

[TVPostSound]

You dont mix against the LM100, its a measurement tool, not a meter.
Raise your room calibration up a couple of dBs, mix by ear, then look at the average, and see where you sit.
One really must know how to mix by ear before going through the LM100.

[philper]

The way a lot of us use it (to hit broadcast spec) is to actually have it on the stereo bus from the get-go: actually build the dialog track with while consulting the thing in short-term mode w/ Dialog Intelligence on. I found that if we do this it is like getting the foundation of a house really level before you build on anything else--the whole thing works much better. The thing to NOT do is to just do what you usually do, and then think you can tweak the mix later to get things to spec out if you haven't already been mixing w/ the LM100 in mind. You will waste a lot of time doing this, and the results will not sound as good. There are certain unpredictabilities about the LM100, first in my mind is the situation where the meter will read differently when listening to a full mix than it will when listening to the same dialog solo'ed--this is not supposed to happen ("Dialog Intelligence"). In any case, it takes a little getting used to, but it is doable--most of us doing broadcast work have gotten out minds around it well enough.

Philip Perkins

[Moofie]

Absolutely, have it across the Dialog buss from the get go. Trying to work backwards with it across your mix is a PITA.

Use your ears and adjust your control monitoring until it's at a level you're used to and the LM100 is giving you that magic number 27.

Sweet

[georgia]

That's how I do it too. in a nut shell, I get the Dialogue in the box with the LM100 across the mix, then I mix around the dialogue.


cheers
geo

[Fajita]

what they said.

I put it across the stereo master because I don't mix in surround, and it works great.

[Tapwatr]

Thanks for the info. I did start this mix in a room with no LM100, maybe I'll just keep it all in the room where we have it from start to finish instead of trying to make it fit after.

A couple of other things I was curious of. Do any of you ever get sections where the LM100 fails to recognize any dialogue even though it is there? I figure it's due to the amount of natural ambiances , in this case wind , that is happening in this one particular scene. The short-term loudness just sits at-24 for about 1 minute. I suppose we'd have to make notes on the read-outs we deliver to the broadcaster.

[postprosound]

maybe it was already stated, but how do you all use the lm100 when mixing for surround? put it on the dial bus?

[minister]

Originally Posted by TVPostSound

One really must know how to mix by ear before going through the LM100.

Hunh. What is all this "ear" stuff?

Is there a book available where I can READ about how my mix should SOUND?

[TVPostSound]

dfegad

[Moofie]

put it on the dial bus?

Yup. So long as the insert point you use has no Volume automation, eq or similar Post insert, otherwise you're going to get false readings.

I either split a Send Post fader on the Dial bus or Ctl+Click an extra bus send straight off the Dial Channel output. One just looks tidier than the other but the Voice count is the same (correct me if I'm wrong).

[pisser]

Originally Posted by Moofie

Yup. So long as the insert point you use has no Volume automation, eq or similar Post insert, otherwise you're going to get false readings.

I either split a Send Post fader on the Dial bus or Ctl+Click an extra bus send straight off the Dial Channel output. One just looks tidier than the other but the Voice count is the same (correct me if I'm wrong).

Aren't you supposed to measure the whole mix with DI on??

[Moofie]

Originally Posted by pisser

Aren't you supposed to measure the whole mix with DI on??

That last setup mentioned, is for those who don't have an LM100 but instead have to make do with products such as Digi's Phasescope.

And no, Digi's Phasescope plug isn't anywhere near as accurate as the the Dolby box; however I've never had a program fail QC (even at Discovery) those times I've had to resort to it.

I did extensive tests comparing the Phasescope Leq measurement to the Audioleak app and found it to be passable. The Phasescope rounds the measurement differently to the Audioleak but as long as you use the 2sec avg reading on the Digi plug you shouldn't have any drama.

[philper]

Originally Posted by Tapwatr

Thanks for the info. I did start this mix in a room with no LM100, maybe I'll just keep it all in the room where we have it from start to finish instead of trying to make it fit after.

A couple of other things I was curious of. Do any of you ever get sections where the LM100 fails to recognize any dialogue even though it is there? I figure it's due to the amount of natural ambiances , in this case wind , that is happening in this one particular scene. The short-term loudness just sits at-24 for about 1 minute. I suppose we'd have to make notes on the read-outs we deliver to the broadcaster.

Yeah-- I sent Dolby some samples awhile back, including one of some tiny chains rattling in a can that the LM100 thought was dialog, and some com recordings of jet fighter pilots that it did not think was dialog. BUT, chances are if your LM100 won't (or will) read these things, then the networks won't (or will) too.

Philip Perkins

[postprosound]

Originally Posted by Moofie

I did extensive tests comparing the Phasescope Leq measurement to the Audioleak app and found it to be passable. The Phasescope rounds the measurement differently to the Audioleak but as long as you use the 2sec avg reading on the Digi plug you shouldn't have any drama.

Moofie and others acquainted with audioleak:
I just downloaded the demo to audioleak, and and would like to know more... i have read through the manual, and am wondering how you have configured the program, and how you use it.
First off, how do you use audioleak with the lm100? i realize that audioleak does not have dialogue intelligence, but, how does it relate. i.e. if the lm100 is to be between -24 and -27, do you shoot for the same on the program, or do you make adjustments?
Do you use it in real time, or process your files after the fact? (and as regards to that, do you analyze the whole piece, or just the dialog stem?
I find the gating feature very interesting, what settings do you set them at?
do you use the firefly meters?
What do you set the RMS response time to? (advanced tab/measurement)

I know i am asking a lot of questions... but this looks like a valuable tool.

One thing that other posters have said, and i agree with, mixing is not a paint by numbers type of thing. your ears are the most important tool. but unfortunately, i think that we all agree that networks have made it much more difficult.

Anyways, thanks for the help. i hope i can return the favor some time as well.

[Frank S.]

Originally Posted by georgia

That's how I do it too. in a nut shell, I get the Dialogue in the box with the LM100 across the mix, then I mix around the dialogue.


cheers
geo

You don't put it on the 5.1 or stereo bus? That's the way we've been doing all of our programs. I'm confused.

Isn't it supposed to measure the average loudness of the mix when dialogue is present? And, if that is so; wouldn't you want it on your mix bus not a sub?

[yazoo]

Originally Posted by georgia

That's how I do it too. in a nut shell, I get the Dialogue in the box with the LM100 across the mix, then I mix around the dialogue.


cheers
geo

We dont have a LM100 yet at our place but I mix the dialog against -27db on the LEQ(A) Meter in Digidesigns Phasescope. And the I mix everything around that.

Is this similar to doing it against LM100?

and

Should the dialog peak at -27 or have an average on -27?

regards
benny

[philper]

Originally Posted by yazoo

We dont have a LM100 yet at our place but I mix the dialog against -27db on the LEQ(A) Meter in Digidesigns Phasescope. And the I mix everything around that.

Is this similar to doing it against LM100?

and

Should the dialog peak at -27 or have an average on -27?

regards
benny

Depends on what the spec you are trying to hit is.

Philip Perkins

[Jazzpunk]

Originally Posted by Frank S.

You don't put it on the 5.1 or stereo bus? That's the way we've been doing all of our programs. I'm confused.

Isn't it supposed to measure the average loudness of the mix when dialogue is present? And, if that is so; wouldn't you want it on your mix bus not a sub?

Georgie was saying that she puts the LM100 across the entire mix. Actually everyone except for Moofie is saying that.

Perhaps Moofie could clarify his/her original statement of strapping the LM100 across the dialogue bus as it seems to be confusing people. I don't see how the LM100 would work that way but I'm interested in hearing about it.

[Jazzpunk]

Originally Posted by Tapwatr

What's up Slutz, this is my first post.

I am looking for some advice. The studio I work at recently acquired an LM100 for a new show we're doing. I've just started my first mix with it and it's not fun. I am wondering if anybody who has experience with this box has any tips on let's say "streamlining" the process of mixing with it.

I have to keep the dialogue between -26 and -28 and it just seems like it's taking a long time.

Thanks in advance.

I posted a similar thread a while back;

Anyone have experience mixing while adhering to specs monitored by the Dolby LM 100?

Garret's advice from that thread worked a treat for me (especially the tip on using the C4!);

Originally Posted by Garret

The best and simplest way is to mix in short term mode. If you can keep the dialogue around 27 here then you are pretty much guaranteed to pass in long term. Its important not to go above a 23 if possible at your loudest dialogue (a scream or whatever). Mix to a VU meter and keep the dialogue from -7 to -3. Your absolute max for the mix has now been reduced to 0VU (it was +3 previously). I also run a C4 multiband on the Dial Bus which compresses some mids and I find that this lets me mix the dialogue a little louder as it kind of tricks the LM100. The dialogue intelligence is obviously more sensitive at these frequencys so reducing them slightly gives you a chance to mix it a tad louder.
I recommend getting the Discovery handbook as it has a lot of good info in it.
Hope this helps some
Garret

[soundboy]

How is the network going to QC the mix? Discovery is very clear as to what they measure, and it's the entire mix, not the Dial bus! Also, once you've done the Dial pass and add in effects and Music, I've seen the LM100 readings change. Also your RMS and peak levels will change. They are very persnickety about that too.

[philper]

Originally Posted by soundboy

How is the network going to QC the mix? Discovery is very clear as to what they measure, and it's the entire mix, not the Dial bus! Also, once you've done the Dial pass and add in effects and Music, I've seen the LM100 readings change. Also your RMS and peak levels will change. They are very persnickety about that too.

Yes, me too. I work the dialog first w/ the LM100, but then keep it on the bus w/ everything else up to see how those additions change the reading. It is kind of a silly game but it is what the networks require.

Philip Perkins

[nlc201]

Yup, I start out with it on the entire buss, then mix around it like everyone else. I'm usually a little bit on the conservative side with just the dialogue as adding music and SFX seem to add about a dB or so depending on the content.


FYI, the LM100 does indeed measure 5.1 material. However it does this only through analyzing a compatible Dolby Digital encoded signal. Thus, having a Dolby Digital encoder would be necessary to be able to do this.


Things that screw the LM100 up and give poor readings:

1. Whispering. I hate this. It seems that when there's a quiet scene where people are whispering, it wreaks havoc. Despite the overwhelming desire to have a quiet scene actually be quiet, I'll pump up everything to the same loudness as everything else (as required). The problem is, the lack of midrange energy in a whispering voice makes the LM100 give some pretty low dialnorm readings. Average meter, peak meter, and most importantly my ears say that it's just as loud as everything else but the LM100 meter can read about 5 or so dB lower than it actually is. You just have to deal with it and pray some dipshit QC engineer doesn't call you on it down the line.


2. Music, more specifically songs. Take an average song with the vocal placed in the mix rather than on top of it. Notice the nice blinking the LM100 does indicating no reading. Then when it does give a reading, it's a few dB above your limit even though the song is mixed at the appropriate loudness. Also, watch the low frequency energy of the song mess with your average levels. BASS???!!!! What's that?!!!!

3. Certain sound FX. Ahem......Sound Ideas......midrangey. Loud sounding in that area. Not at all like those matrix-esque buzzy sound FX that the LM100 can't even detect.....


Things that help the LM100....


1. Compression. Yeah, it can suck and make everything sound flat and fatiguing, but it can be a big help. I've found that a strong hand on individual dial and VO tracks can help wrassle (wrassle?!!!) things into place, albeit at a certain expense. This is where automation comes in handy, but budgets and time restraints sometimes dictate a more extreme course of action. Also, an appropriately set compressor on the dial buss can help catch things and not drive you too nuts. Usually I find the compressor's sweet spot for a particular dialnorm setting and that becomes part of the mix template. Effective.


I've learned to live with this box. Boy are my mixes DYNAMIC now. When I listen to film mixes it makes me cry.......

[Frank S.]

Originally Posted by Jazzpunk

Georgie was saying that she puts the LM100 across the entire mix. Actually everyone except for Moofie is saying that.

Perhaps Moofie could clarify his/her original statement of strapping the LM100 across the dialogue bus as it seems to be confusing people. I don't see how the LM100 would work that way but I'm interested in hearing about it.

Cool. I was just a bit confused.
I usually run mine on the mix bus while I'm doing the 5.1 mix, then again on the stereo sub bus for the fold down. (Most specs I deal with require the LM100 measurement on both.)

[audiobob10]

All you out there are talking about mixing shows for broadcast and the requirements of the networks. My issue is that mix commercials that air on a multitude of networks, cable chanels etc. Are any of you dealing with this problem in regards to the lm100 and 5.1 or dont i have to worry about broadcast specks? Right now we mix with vu meters @-18 0vu with +10 peaks.

There doesn't seem to be a lot of discussion on audio for commercials in the new digital age.

[Tapwatr]

I tried using the LEQ(A) on Digi's Phasescope but it's quite a few db's off, sometimes more than six to the reading I am getting on the LM100

It goes against my instinct but I was wondering about having a transparent limiter on the dialogue bus and sort of mixing into it so it's just slightly attenuating. Anyone try that?

[Roy Harter]

I had some Discovery Channel stereo mixes bounce back from their QT due to their strict Dolby LM-100 specs. The only frustrating thing for me were that the mixes were not intended to air, rather they were for a theatre presentation.
We got the box, adjusted some overall output levels of the mixes (including tc electronic finalizer compression settings), and relayed the mix to the HD deck.
The mix now adheres to their standards, but I sincerely feel the presentation won't be as effective because my hands were really tied with the VO in reference to the music in the mix. My instincts really wanted to push the music further.
I understand their reasons for it, and I applaud them trying to adhere to a standard, but I think it might not always be as black and white. Every mix situation should be addressed individually.
The mix still sounds great, and I'm really proud of it, but I think it was better before.

[jacobfarron]

FYI, the LM100 does indeed measure 5.1 material. However it does this only through analyzing a compatible Dolby Digital encoded signal. Thus, having a Dolby Digital encoder would be necessary to be able to do this.

What encoder? The DP571 for Dolby E? Or is there a way to send it AC3? Excuse the ignorance... I'm just getting into surround mixing. What encoded signals are compatible?

We dont have a LM100 yet at our place but I mix the dialog against -27db on the LEQ(A) Meter in Digidesigns Phasescope. And the I mix everything around that.

Is this similar to doing it against LM100?]
Yazoo - Don't do this. I've tried it. Way too loud. Digi's LeqA doesn't have Dolby's "Dialog Intelligence" so it will measure the silence in between words... thus giving you a lower reading. If you mix loud enough to hit -27LeqA for the entire show in PhaseScope it's LOUD - I found out the hard way.

[MixinMonkey]

Originally Posted by jacobfarron

Yazoo - Don't do this. I've tried it. Way too loud. Digi's LeqA doesn't have Dolby's "Dialog Intelligence" so it will measure the silence in between words... thus giving you a lower reading. If you mix loud enough to hit -27LeqA for the entire show in PhaseScope it's LOUD - I found out the hard way.

I agree with Jacob. Digi's LeqA isn't even in the same ballpark with the LM100. it's worth the effort to spend some $$ and buy one.


But on another issue..

Originally Posted by audiobob10

My issue is that mix commercials that air on a multitude of networks, cable chanels etc. Are any of you dealing with this problem in regards to the lm100 and 5.1 or dont i have to worry about broadcast specks? Right now we mix with vu meters @-18 0vu with +10 peaks.

There doesn't seem to be a lot of discussion on audio for commercials in the new digital age.

Commercial levels are a big issue in my book..
I haven't mixed a spot in many years, but I have some good friends who mix many hi-end spots every day.. these guys/girls do superbowl spots every year.

These commercial mixers are stuck in an odd situation They truly want to follow the LM100, and they do so when required, BUT then their clients will freak out at them: "Why was our spot so much lower in level compared to all the others!?!".. and as we ALL know, advertisers are a different animal, they only care about getting that spot stuck in your head. unfortunately their levels literally do it.

I know of some mixers in a few different studios who have resorted in playing some interesting (and impressive) 'tricks' to fool the LM100 into thinking the dialog level is lower than it sounds when the clients ask them to.. and they do!

Unfortunately this really sucks in my book.
I 100% respect the reasoning behind the creating of the LM100, and this is one of the reasons it was created.. because we all hate loud commercials that blow our heads off.

My point is,
In a perfect world I wish there was a way to get the broadcasters to crack down on these spots being delivered to them so loud and make it a more strict and realistic spec. (pipe dream I know.. they're getting so much $$ from them.. oh well..)

Okay, I'm done ranting now..

[georgia]

yup.. when I mix in stereo the LM100 is across the full mix, because thats' how it's going to get QC and approved or rejected by the network. If I mix in 5.1 I put it on the downmix LoRo channels. I've tried the Digi phase meter out of curiosity... handy , but it doesnt cut it. I also have LEQ metering on my Dk audio 600m, but I cannot use it for this as well. To do LM100 Dialnorm you need a Dolby system.. Good marketing huh. they wiggled in as a sole source for what is becoming a standard. And on top of that an incorrectly implemented technology....

Kinda like guns, huh Charles... Good Idea.... bad implementation by a select few, screwing it up for the rest of us.... but I digress...

cheers
geo