voiceover demo house...Pro Tools LE vs. Logic 8 vs Adobe Audition 3

[captain54]

Seeking opinions on how to streamline my process...

Voiceover Demo house...producing demos for VO talent, involving
full production of spots..

I'm currently in the process of purchasing gear, updating and
streamlining my process...my question is mostly on the software
side...

I have both Mac and PC....right now, switching back and forth between
Protools LE (tracking and audio editing), Logic 7 (tracking,production and mastering),
Adobe Audition (audio editing)...

My process is somewhat cumbersome, in that I switch back and forth between three
platforms..I would like to streamline it all down to one DAW...do all the tracking, mastering and production on one platform...I'm most familiar with Logic, but find it
overkill for what I'm doing..I heard that Logic 8 has improved on the audio editing side, but I'm not sure that's it's still up to what you can do with Audition and PTools

any input from anyone who has a similiar set up to mine, or has worked with any of the above with VO Production?

[georgia]

uhh... is this a trick question?


Protools.
good mic.
good mic pre.


ok, you can also use Logic, Digital performer, Nuendo or any other DAW system...


cheers

[captain54]

Originally Posted by georgia

uhh... is this a trick question?


Protools.
good mic.
good mic pre.

care to elaborate on that a bit?

[OJCamero]

Pick the piece of software that you are most confortable with and master it. I have Logic and Pro Tools on my Mac but I know Pro Tools so well that I never have to leave it. All DAWS are pretty much the same with little differences here and there. It's all about your deliverables. No one cares how you get from point a to point B as long as the final product is what you want. If your planning on working with other studios I would really suggest sticking with Pro Tools. It's not the best thing in the world but your have a much better chance of compatability when it comes to sending sessions to another studio.

[captain54]

Originally Posted by OJCamero

All DAWS are pretty much the same with little differences here and there.

I think there's a big difference between certain DAWS....Logic and Protools
for that matter. Working with Logic, then working with Protools, seems like
you are using different parts of your brain...

I'm more familiar with Logic, but the more I use Audition and Protools, the more
it seems these are more adapted to what I'm doing...tracking VO's and producing spots..

[Lipflap]

While I agree that any decent, professional DAW will do the trick, don't give up your quest until you've looked at Pyramix. It's completely compatible with PT, accepts all sorts of file formats on the same timeline, has a very advanced edit window and simply "feels real." You don't necessarily need all this power to cut VO, but it's a great system to grow into.

[Energie]

jsut curious

why on earth would you track with one software, master with another, and do another thing with another software..

just pick one, use it, done!!!

[captain54]

Originally Posted by Bryan Talbot

I'd be interested to know how you developed your work process that you use all three. In any case, if you're tracking and editing with PT, I'd stick with that one. I can't say that Logic has really streamlined their audio editing. (There are those who will vehemently disagree with that. )

My personal experience in VO production has been with PT, for about fourteen years.

I've been using Logic since version 3....I've stuck with that because of the seamless intergration of virtual instruments and samplers...these days though, I dont' do a lot of composition..mostly dropping beds and foley behind a recorded VO track...

When I started producing VO's I stuck with Logic because I'm not anywhere near as proficient with Pro tools...however, when it came to edited pops, clicks, etc, from voice tracks, Logic was way cumbersome, and I ended up purchasing Pro tools, then played around with Audition and found myself flying files back and forth ...Audition is excellent for cleaning up Vo's with the spectral display, and Pro tools is great from chopping up clips, shifting and re arranging them.

Logic has a lot of great channel strip presets and the included effects are very useful for VO...the offline bouncing is big time saver...

so there are pros and cons to all of them, but having three programs is a very inefficient way to work...and eventually I realize I'm gonna need to work with one DAW

[danijel]

Originally Posted by Lipflap

.... Pyramix. It's completely compatible with PT, .....

john,
in what way is it compatible with PT? omf-compatible, or project compatible? or in some other way?

[georgia]

Pyramix is way cool. You can have multiple sessions open and simply drag and drop materials between sessions. It has a nice interface and has bins for material. I've looked at it a few times. The only reason it's not in my studio is that non of my clients have heard of it and not enough facilities use it. Kinda chicken vs egg situtation.

cheers
geo

[Lipflap]

Originally Posted by danijel

john,
in what way is it compatible with PT? omf-compatible, or project compatible? or in some other way?

Hi Danijel,

Regarding Pyramix 4.1, here’s what the Merging Technology website says about interchange into/out from their DAW:

“Pyramix now supports Project Interchange from different DAW systems, either with Direct import/export of the native project, or via AES31, Open-TL or OMF. DAW’s such Sonic Solutions, Nuendo, Pro-Tools, Tascam, SADIE, Fairlight, Akai DD/DR Series, Soundscape, AMS/Neve and Waveframe systems can all interface directly with Pyramix.”

I saw this a few months ago at a demo in London, and as best I remember the project interchange between PT and Pyramix was pretty transparent. However, it’s worth going to the Merging Technologies site for more answers.

[danijel]

Originally Posted by Lipflap

I saw this a few months ago at a demo in London, and as best I remember the project interchange between PT and Pyramix was pretty transparent.

thank you. that's very interesting. i just googled, but all i found (besides copy-pastes of that info from merging's website [which is dated - 2002]) is this Merging Technologies Pyramix Field Test-Mix reviews the Merging Technologies Pyramix 4.2 Workstation article, which is dated itself (also about v4.1). among other info, it said:
"Pro Tools is supported only up to V. 5.0, limiting the Pro Tools session interchange".
i like it that they put so much attention into interchange; it is really a key feature for co-existing/replacing pro tools.

EDIT:
unfortunately, this is info about latest version (6):
Supported Interchange Formats: OMF, AAF, XML, Final Cut XML, CMX-EDL, AES31, OpenTL, DAR, Protools 5.x

[Lipflap]

Originally Posted by danijel

EDIT:
unfortunately, this is info about latest version (6):
Supported Interchange Formats: OMF, AAF, XML, Final Cut XML, CMX-EDL, AES31, OpenTL, DAR, Protools 5.x

That's not what I remember, but memory's a weird thing. I'd drop line to the Swiss engineering office or call your local vendor (if you have one - I don't) if you want to get to the bottom of this. If you learn something, please let us know. Thanks.

[Ashermusic]

All three are fine for this kind of work but if it is simplicity you are after, I must say I am very impressed with Adobe Audition 3.

[danijel]

Originally Posted by Lipflap

If you learn something, please let us know. Thanks.

there's no doubt, as it's info from their site:
pyramix
Pyramix Native

although the directory where these pages reside on their server is called '2002', it is, in fact, the info about the latest version.
maybe some of you protools owners can check if current protools can save project in PT5 format?

[Lipflap]

Originally Posted by danijel

there's no doubt, as it's info from their site:
pyramix
Pyramix Native

although the directory where these pages reside on their server is called '2002', it is, in fact, the info about the latest version.
maybe some of you protools owners can check if current protools can save project in PT5 format?

Thanks for clearing up that one. Hard to believe.

[UnderTow]

Originally Posted by danijel

maybe some of you protools owners can check if current protools can save project in PT5 format?

It can. This is what the manual has to say (version 7.3_32962):

Saving Pro Tools HD 7.2 or Higher Sessions to Pro Tools 5.1 -> 6.9 Format
A Pro Tools 7.2 or higher session cannot be opened with Pro Tools versions 6.9.x through
5.1.

To save a Pro Tools 7.x session so it is compatible with Pro Tools version 6.9.x through 5.1, use the File > Save Copy In command to choose the “Pro Tools 5.1 -> 6.9” session format. When saving a Pro Tools HD 7.2 or higher session to Pro Tools HD 5.1 -> 6.9 format, the following occurs:
Tracks
• Instrument tracks are split into separate Auxiliary Input and MIDI tracks.
• VCA Master tracks are removed and VCA automation is coalesced to the corresponding slave tracks.
• Trim automation playlists are coalesced to their corresponding automation playlists.
• Fader Gain levels and automation breakpoints higher than +6 dB are changed to +6 dB.
• Long names are shortened to 31 characters.
• The following attributes are dropped:
• Region groups
• Region loops
• Sample-based MIDI regions
• Sample-based MIDI tracks
• Sends F–J and any associated automation
• Marker/Memory Locations 201–999 Groups
• All groups beyond the first 26 (Bank 1, Groups a–z) are dropped.
• Mix Groups keep only Main Volume information.
• Mix/Edit Groups keep only Main Volume and Automation Mode information.
• Automation overflow information for grouped controls is not preserved.
• Group behavior of Solos, LFEs, Mutes, Send Levels, Send Mutes is not preserved.
• Solo Mode and Solo Latch settings are dropped.
Video
• Only the main video track is displayed.
• Only the first QuickTime movie in the session is displayed or played back.
• If the session contains QuickTime movies in the Region List but no video track, the session opens with a new QuickTime Movie track containing the first QuickTime movie from the Region List.
• The Timeline displays and plays back only the video playlist that was last active. Alternate video playlists are not available.
• Video regions and video region groups are not shown or saved.

Saving Pro Tools HD 7.2 or Higher Sessions to Pro Tools 5.0 Format
A Pro Tools 7.2 or higher session cannot be opened with Pro Tools version 5.0.
To save a Pro Tools 7.x session so it is compatible with Pro Tools version 5.0, use the File > Save Copy In command to choose the “Pro Tools 5.0” session format. When saving a Pro Tools HD 7.2 or higher session to Pro Tools 5.0 format, all items that occur when saving a Pro Tools HD 7.2 session to Pro Tools HD 5.1->6.9 format, plus the following:
• Multichannel surround tracks are removed from the session.
• Inactive tracks are removed from the session.
• Tracks assigned to “No Output” are routed to Busses 31 and 32.
• Tracks or sends assigned to Busses 33–64 are routed to Busses 31 and 32.
• Tracks assigned to multichannel paths or subpaths of multichannel paths are routed to Busses 31 and 32.
• Sends assigned to multichannel paths or subpaths of multichannel paths are dropped.
• Tracks or sends assigned to stereo paths referring to even/odd channels (such as 2–3) are routed to Busses 31 and 32.
• Multi-mono plug-in instances are dropped


Alistair

[minister]

Originally Posted by Bryan Talbot

I have a love/hate history with Logic (wide-eyed excitement followed by extreme aggravation), but the offline bounce has saved my butt BIG TIME on a couple of occasions. I'm glad I have it, and do want to move to 8, after a revision or two. PTHD rules the roost here, until I have multiple thirty-minute bounces to make in an hour!

You should get out of the habit of bouncing mixes. Instead, learn to record to an audio track and export the file in whatever format you want.

It saves time, is safer, and allows multiple mixes to be output.

With your faster than real time bounce, do you ever listen to the file? You should. part of good QC. But the listen is in real time. so, you are adding the NRT bounce time into the process. With Recording the mix to a track you listen AS you make the file. In Post, you can WATCH the show AS you make the file. Hear a hiccup, or mistake, or want to tweak something? stop, fix, punch in. Worried about the client review time? Print your mix as you review with the client. When approved, you are done. No need to go back and bounce.

Learn to set up busses for all your mixes and stems. In basic TV mixing, you often have to do a mix and Mono M&E's and V&N tracks. Don't bounce three times, setup routing and print all those things in ONE pass AS you watch.

Need to output all the version of a spot or piece, or "multiple thirty-minute bounces in an hour"? Learn to set up your session with them stacked in the place for the file creation.

[Brent Hahn]

Originally Posted by georgia
uhh... is this a trick question?
Protools.
good mic.
good mic pre.

<care to elaborate on that a bit?>

If you're happy making fake spots for VO wannabe's, you can use anything. If you want to make real spots, get good at the platform real spots get made on.

[captain54]

Originally Posted by Brent Hahn

Originally Posted by georgia
uhh... is this a trick question?
Protools.
good mic.
good mic pre.

<care to elaborate on that a bit?>

If you're happy making fake spots for VO wannabe's, you can use anything. If you want to make real spots, get good at the platform real spots get made on.

I think your comment is a little unfair..I'm not ecstatic about making VO demos, but you gotta pay the bills somehow. And the people I produce demos for are not exactly wannabe's, they're professional actors in the Chicago area...Of course, I could be taking what you're saying the wrong way.

If the spots on my demos sounded fake, I'd be out of business in a hearbeat...

That being said, thank you for your comment .. You actually gave me the answer I was looking for all along....In the real, professional world of radio and TV spot production, Pro Tools is the platform of choice....

[Brent Hahn]

<<I think your comment is a little unfair..I'm not ecstatic about making VO demos, but you gotta pay the bills somehow.>>

Unfair? Okay. Not sugar-coated? Absolutely. If you're in this for the long haul, I think you'll find that making real spots pays the bills in a way you might be a little closer to ecstatic about.

[captain54]

Originally Posted by Brent Hahn

<<I think your comment is a little unfair..I'm not ecstatic about making VO demos, but you gotta pay the bills somehow.>>

Unfair? Okay. Not sugar-coated? Absolutely. If you're in this for the long haul, I think you'll find that making real spots pays the bills in a way you might be a little closer to ecstatic about.

I think it's a given that most people that are producing demos would rather be in real production.

I'd like to have Scarlett Johansson standing in front of me naked right now, but that's more than likely not going to happen.

[Brent Hahn]

Originally Posted by captain54

I think it's a given that most people that are producing demos would rather be in real production.

Most of the people I know who do VO demos are in real production. )They do demos because... a.) it's extra dough; b.) they're masochistic studio rats who can't imagine going home before midnight, and/or c.) it's fun to play "director." Not sure about the Scarlett Johanssen part.

If people are coming to you because your work sounds better than the real spots they've done (or wish they had done), your work is good enough to get you an entry-level foot in the door someplace where you can start a real career. Especially when you live in the 3rd-largest ad production market in the US.

[captain54]

Originally Posted by Brent Hahn

Most of the people I know who do VO demos are in real production.

I would have to say you are right on the money, the more I think about it. That would be true here in Chi-town, as well as LA. The top demo houses are also production houses, commanding as high as $8000 for a demo package. They just recycle spots they've produced and plug in the VO talent (or wannabe talent)....kinda of a scam IMHO

[Yoda117]

Originally Posted by captain54

The top demo houses are also production houses, commanding as high as $8000 for a demo package. They just recycle spots they've produced and plug in the VO talent (or wannabe talent)....kinda of a scam IMHO

Yeah, I'm with you on that one. There's way too many "demo factories" out there. It's hard to find a good place unless you really do your homework and take the advice of those who are currently working.

Anyway, I've found that PT is usually used in VO, though a couple of places in the smaller market use AA (primarily for radio spots). Long story short, it doesn't really matter so long as you know how to use the tool and can save it in whatever format the client needs you to.

I don't think I've recorded a VO spot of my own in anything other than AA for the past 18 months (I do have other DAW apps, including PT; I just prefer AA for some reason). My clients don't seem to mind, since they can do what they need to with the WAV or MP3. When the clients start asking for PT or another app, then I'll consider moving to it, but for now it's not the tool, but the ability one has with it that will get you work.

[kk@jamsync.com]

Originally Posted by danijel

thank you. that's very interesting. i just googled, but all i found (besides copy-pastes of that info from merging's website [which is dated - 2002]) is this Merging Technologies Pyramix Field Test-Mix reviews the Merging Technologies Pyramix 4.2 Workstation article, which is dated itself (also about v4.1). among other info, it said:
"Pro Tools is supported only up to V. 5.0, limiting the Pro Tools session interchange".
i like it that they put so much attention into interchange; it is really a key feature for co-existing/replacing pro tools.

EDIT:
unfortunately, this is info about latest version (6):
Supported Interchange Formats: OMF, AAF, XML, Final Cut XML, CMX-EDL, AES31, OpenTL, DAR, Protools 5.x

Yep. That was my review three years ago. A lot of things have changed since then! I was asked to review the newer versions (by the same magazine), but declined because I have stopped writing reviews. The company were less than happy about the PT comment and wanted large portions of my review rewritten so that the review would be more flattering. (I refused)

[danijel]

Originally Posted by kk@jamsync.com

Yep. That was my review three years ago. A lot of things have changed since then! I was asked to review the newer versions (by the same magazine), but declined because I have stopped writing reviews. The company were less than happy about the PT comment and wanted large portions of my review rewritten so that the review would be more flattering. (I refused)

if it was more flattering, it would be suspicious.
maybe the filesystems issue was too detailed, and not pyramix-specific, but that added to the impression you are not biased.

[kk@jamsync.com]

Originally Posted by danijel

if it was more flattering, it would be suspicious.
maybe the filesystems issue was too detailed, and not pyramix-specific, but that added to the impression you are not biased.

I thought, and still think, that if they wanted to compete against Digidesign, they had to be able to take in PT sessions. They're Swiss and perhaps did not see the kind of infrastructure Digi has in the States. It was the only company I've encountered that actually thought they could push me into deleting facts from my writings!

[Moofie]

Originally Posted by minister

You should get out of the habit of bouncing mixes. Instead, learn to record to an audio track and export the file in whatever format you want.

It saves time, is safer, and allows multiple mixes to be output.

With your faster than real time bounce, do you ever listen to the file? You should. part of good QC. But the listen is in real time. so, you are adding the NRT bounce time into the process. With Recording the mix to a track you listen AS you make the file. In Post, you can WATCH the show AS you make the file. Hear a hiccup, or mistake, or want to tweak something? stop, fix, punch in. Worried about the client review time? Print your mix as you review with the client. When approved, you are done. No need to go back and bounce.

Learn to set up busses for all your mixes and stems. In basic TV mixing, you often have to do a mix and Mono M&E's and V&N tracks. Don't bounce three times, setup routing and print all those things in ONE pass AS you watch.

Need to output all the version of a spot or piece, or "multiple thirty-minute bounces in an hour"? Learn to set up your session with them stacked in the place for the file creation.

I never EVER bounce out a mix! Especially in Post. You have to be able to guarentee to your client that yes, that 44min prog is in sync from top to bottom with NO glitches, pops, clicks OR drift.
If they come back because of a problem with the bounced file, then it's YOUR suite time and YOUR rep on the line.

When laying back an Ep I'm also printing Mix/Narr (if req)/Dial/FX/Music stems back into my session. That goes for Doco/Drama/Film whatever... it's just a great habit to get into.
One pass AND, like Minister says, I can revise it as it goes down.

[Bad Bass]

You can record what you want in PT then go into your audio hardware set up and set up a loop then transfer that info. from PT right into Adobe 3.0 loosing 0 quality and bingo you have both worlds ! works like a charm.
I just bought pt 8 and there are some tools I can't live without that PT don't have so I had to figure it this way to use both programs at the same time with the 2 monitors it's the best move I could make.SO FAR, SO GOOD!