What happens on the dub stage ?

[maria]

This is probably another really obvious and general question but I have always wondered what actually happens to dialogue on the dub stage and why it sounds so good compare to my mixing which consists of mainly dialogue editing first , then getting the levels right, EQing noisy stuff and making things flat, and finally working on perceptive.

Apart from years of experience and a good room are there any other reasons dialogue sounds so polished after the dub stage.

I know it sounds like i'm looking for rules here but are there any general ways to EQ dialogue for films? does the mixer usually EQ/filter some frequencies out of the dialogue above and bellow a set frequency on the entire film to make it sound smoother?

Most importantly, is there a book out there which focuses on film mixing techniques?

[undergroundtoon]

Amazon.com: film mixing techniques

[minister]

You mean beside the Ping Pong and Basketball and Foosball??

It is years of experience, knowing the tools, knowing where you need to get to, a good room with good monitoring and work. You have to know what techniques to use when. Also helps of you have good recording to begin with and not splatty Lav's going directly into a Camera.......... In many ways, it is the hardest thing to do in Film Audio Post.

by the way, i know of NO book about film mixing. The link to the Amazon site only has a music mixing book and books on directing and scoring. You can't write about what Dialogue should SOUND like.

[maria]

Hey thanks guys

I'm defiantly learning by doing at the moment and usually from my mistakes. I guess I was hoping to find some info on how others approach the final process of film mixing

[smsjr]

Tom summed it up well. There are no shortcuts.

1. good location sound, you've got a head start. Bad location sound, must make difficult decisions -performance vs getting it clean (ADR).

2. Clean transfer in - Is it coming from analog, digital? What's the chain. A lot is now digital, but you must always be working with the highest resolution files you can. If there have been conversions along the way it can impact the audio in detrimental ways. In low budget world be careful if you are getting audi via OMF and will use the audio that came directly from the editor. Must make sure the audio has not been compromised in any way.

3. Need to know when to process, how to process, and when to leave dialogue alone. I admire the ones that can manage to create a natural, smooth dialogue track that just seems to fit perfectly into the rest of the mix. It is quite an art.

4. No book can teach you this. In fact, I would say that it can be very difficult to learn on your own as well without any kind of observation of a skilled mixer. I suppose if you have a natural ability to do this, it will come quicker to you but I think a lot of times it's seeing how the good ones work their magic that can really take you to that next level.

Maria, there's no harm in asking the question. Trust me, I'm by no means one of these skilled dialogue mixers. I struggle with some of the same things you are coming up against. I will get poorly recorded tracks that need so much work that at times you start to feel like there's no hope. All you can do is try the best you can with what you are given and within the technical parameters that you are working in. If you can find someone who has a lot of experience and is willing to let you observe, I highly recommend it.

Steve

[Henchman]

Yes, no magic tricks or secret settings.
It's experience.
Being fortunate to mix with a good dialog mixer for awhile, and elarn form them is highly recommended.

Adn it's something you really just have to "Get".

[maria]

Thanks for the help :-) I will hopfully find a person to show me his way of mixing. Right now the thing I found to be really useful is to A/B my mixes with other know films.

Are there any films that you could recomend that have a very clean and good dialogue that I could use as reference?



The other thing i was wondering is, well lets say that I have captured the perfect take during the recording (right perspective, without any noisy background or other inference)

Would I then say OK it sounds perfect, I'll leave it like that, or would I still need to do some sort of mastering to it? Surly, l'll need to remove some rumble and other high frequencies before i burn it to DVD, no?

Cheers,

Maria

[smsjr]

The other thing i was wondering is, well lets say that I have captured the perfect take during the recording (right perspective, without any noisy background or other inference)

Would I then say OK it sounds perfect, I'll leave it like that, or would I still need to do some sort of mastering to it? Surly, l'll need to remove some rumble and other high frequencies before i burn it to DVD, no?

Most likely you would roll off some of the low end. You'd be amazed at what kind of low freq can reside on a track and without a monitoring system that can go down to those low freqs, you might miss it. Often I will start with a high pass around 40hz and work my way up until I remove the noise/rumble, etc that I'm trying to get rid of. Sometimes a low pass filter can be useful as well, but be careful of removing some of the air from the track. As for notching, shelving, etc those are decisions that you make based on matching other dialogue, removing unwanted frequencies, etc. Sometimes you'll automate EQ to fit better in the mix and you'll always find that riding the track will help things sit well and sound natural.

Compression is used on dialogue as well, but don't get in trouble with overcompressing. If the track is pumping, that's a bad thing. I favor gentle compression, with fader riding. If you need to remove sibilance, make sure you have a good plugin or hardware DeEsser, otheriwse notch the sibilance manually with EQ or volume.

The hardest part about dialogue mixing is making sure it sounds consistent. This can be very difficult if you are getting tracks from bad location sound recordists who don't know anything about perspective, or how to handle reverb on set. If you are getting tracks that have a medium shot and the track sounds like it is recorded from 20 feet away, then you are in for a long session. There's only so much you can do. On the other hand if you get well recorded tracks, then you at least have a good starting point and you can make decisions that are easier to achieve.

Hope this helps. If you can hook up with that mixer I think you'll enjoy it very much. The movie Traffic has some bonus features on dialogue editing and mixing. His films are good to watch because he tends to use a lot of the production sound. Also, Larry Blake does the sound for his films and has been a mix it in the box guy for a while now.

Steve

[maria]

Great advice, thank you so much

[kenjkelly]

I've been impressed with the sound from DVD's. If I set my monitors up to the X-Curve and play a DVD, like "Chicago", I feel like I am at the theater (I can almost smell the popcorn). I had done a little searching and found this snippet on mixing, but nothing on any magic EQ.


THE SONY SETUP

Sony Pictures Entertainment's “SPE Specifications for the Creation of Home Theater Printmasters” covers the creation from theatrical stems of both 5.1 and Lt/Rt (for Pro Logic) print masters that “optimize a film soundtrack for home presentation.” The specifications define requirements and setup for a home-theater remix on a full mixing stage.
In terms of near-field speaker placement, SPE calls for the three front speakers to be set in an arc 7 to 8 feet in front of the mix position, with Left and Right each 3.5 to 4 feet out from Center. The speakers are placed on stands adjusted to 6 to 8 inches above the console meter bridge and angled down toward the mix position. Left and Right Surrounds, meanwhile, are placed 4 to 6 feet behind and to the sides of the mix position at an angle of 110 degrees. The front and surround speakers are each calibrated fo 80 SPL, C-weighted, using a spectrum analyzer. As for the sub, it generally goes in front, but may be positioned as needed to achieve the desired response. Subwoofer calibration is +10 dB higher in its passband, relative to the average spectral balance of the near-fields.
Regarding the speakers employed, SPE's spec requires Genelec 1031A self-powered speakers and a Genelec 1094A self-powered subwoofer, or similar. The 1031As are to be used with the -2dB roll-off switch engaged on the tweeter only, with all other switches in flat position. “The -2dB switch,” says Sony's Brian Vessa, “puts a gentle shelf on the top. It doesn't let the response just go wide open out to the sky, because you would never have that at home.”

[dwaynedelario]

IMHO one of the most important ingredients in the chain has been left out here: The Dialog Editor. Good dialog editing can make or break the tracks. I have had the good fortune of working with the absolute best and you would be absolutely amazed at the hard work that goes into the dia tracks from a GOOD editor. Everything from fixing syllabic annoyances to filling out the gaps with the perfect air for the track. All the great mixers will tell you how important these people are. Without them, their work is tenfold.

[kenjkelly]

Very Good point! In music when I erase a lip-smack sound the space is hidden by the drums and guitar. For dialog the sudden space would be really bad.